Why Do So Many Audiophiles Reject Blind Testing Of Audio Components?
Because it was scientifically proven to be useless more than 60 years ago.
A speech scientist by the name of Irwin Pollack have conducted an experiment in the early 1950s. In a blind ABX listening test, he asked people to distinguish minimal pairs of consonants (like “r” and “l”, or “t” and “p”).
He found out that listeners had no problem telling these consonants apart when they were played back immediately one after the other. But as he increased the pause between the playbacks, the listener’s ability to distinguish between them diminished. Once the time separating the sounds exceeded 10-15 milliseconds (approximately 1/100th of a second), people had a really hard time telling obviously different sounds apart. Their answers became statistically no better than a random guess.
If you are interested in the science of these things, here’s a nice summary:
Categorical and noncategorical modes of speech perception along the voicing continuum
Since then, the experiment was repeated many times (last major update in 2000, Reliability of a dichotic consonant-vowel pairs task using an ABX procedure.)
So reliably recognizing the difference between similar sounds in an ABX environment is impossible. 15ms playback gap, and the listener’s guess becomes no better than random. This happens because humans don't have any meaningful waveform memory. We cannot exactly recall the sound itself, and rely on various mental models for comparison. It takes time and effort to develop these models, thus making us really bad at playing "spot the sonic difference right now and here" game.
Also, please note that the experimenters were using the sounds of speech. Human ears have significantly better resolution and discrimination in the speech spectrum. If a comparison method is not working well with speech, it would not work at all with music.
So the “double blind testing” crowd is worshiping an ABX protocol that was scientifically proven more than 60 years ago to be completely unsuitable for telling similar sounds apart. And they insist all the other methods are “unscientific.”
The irony seems to be lost on them.
Why do so many audiophiles reject blind testing of audio components? - Quora
@hilde45 I'm naive about this debate, but if someone is willing to help me, IF ABX testing is useful at all, in what circumstances is ABX most useful and when is it least useful? Blind audio testing – PS Audio |
@cleeds The notion that blind testing for audio is an absolute test is absurd, and on so many levels. There is abundant literature (although not enough) on the frailty and limitations of blind testing in all matters of research. (That doesn’t mean that blind testing doesn’t have its place in audio, but it’s useless for most audiophiles. This is Paul McGowan's of PS Audio POV. Yes, he uses blind tests in design, but not in listening to music Blind audio testing – PS Audio |
@edgewound
Harman Int'l uses blind testing quite frequently...Yes they do. So does Paul McGowan. (see above link) But it is a meant for mfg's purpose, Harmon also trains their testers HOW to listen. And HERE is where most people fail. They either do not have a system which is sensitive enough to make any difference or they don't know what they are listening for. Plus other things which Paul mentions in the video (above) |
@douglas_schroeder I agree with your perspective. The reason I post this is because we have a lot of new people who have been putting forth this scientismist POV. There are also new people here who really want the proper info. They don't know. Hopefully they can come to an understanding, much like I did from some of the more knowledgeable posters from the past & present |
@orgillian192
A test of systems (or components in a system not my own) playing it to me would still be useless as my reference is my own system and without a direct comparison to that, I would have virtually no frame of reference to opine on what may or may not be different.
Indeed a very good point and one which Paul McGowan (PS Audio) & Hans Beekhuyzen have made as well. Harman Int. trains all their people who do testing, on how to listen. @mikelavigne above has given many problems which he faces in the many DBX he has been involved. |
@millercarbon The subject was the premise double blind testing is inappropriate and meaningless. The supporting evidence is a study involving speech recognition. The flaw in the reasoning, no evidence is given that speech recognition and component evaluations involve similar brain functions. Let alone skills sets. So the OP premise is fatally flawed.OP Also, please note that the experimenters were using the sounds of speech. Human ears have significantly better resolution and discrimination in the speech spectrum. If a comparison method is not working well with speech, it would not work at all with music The pivotal paragraph is the one above IMO. The question is the veracity of the last sentence... If a comparison method is not working well with speech, it would not work at all with music We know that correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation. But there is a correlation and sometimes they DO overlap to the point where they are the same. Which begs the question, if we cannot discern speech while blindfolded, can we discern music any better? I've lived long enough to know that there are those in this world that no amount of evidence will prove anything to them. They have a closed mind which cannot learn. So I don't try to convince but like Fox, I report, you decide. FWIW, this was written by another, not me. But I have plenty more which will be disclosed later |
@ dletch2, jdane, djones, jjassmith and all the other Scientismists on board. You boys are good at casting aspersions on those of us who do not agree with your religion of Scientism. But do you have any REAL science to back up your assertions? You aren't calling on science. I've debated too many small minded people like you who when backed in a corner, always cry out that my question was not answerable by science. So on one hand, you infer that science has all the answers and then when backed into a corner you contradict yourself and say it doesn't. So I know who you are, what you think you know and your next move. As I use to tell my son, "I know what you are going to do before you do it". Why? Because I have been you. But I grew up. maybe you will too. But its not guaranteed. |
@thyname Ditto Seems as though they want to force their thinking & ways on me. I could care less if they want to use electric fence or dynamite wire in their system. If they hear no difference, fine with me. Just don't try to force me to use electric fence, dynamite or barbed wire. But your analogy goes even further. if we can't hear any difference in wire, can we hear it in capacitors, resistors? I wouldn't think so. Then are all amps the same? What difference would it make with an amp? Their argument gets pretty ridiculous IMO |
@ dletch2 Because people like to hear themselves talk, they do it about things they don't have any real knowledge of,93 posts in this thread and you, have 18 of them or nearly 20%. That's about the most accurate thing I've heard you say. Psychological projection - Wikipedia Projection tends to come to the fore in normal people at times of personal or political crisis but is more commonly found in narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder. |
@cleeds @penguinpower I think you are right about exposure. They may not even have what we would call a system. But i suspect they’re often young and maybe have some electronics exposure and want to impress everyone with their knowledge. They remind me of the kid who had taken auto mechanics in school & just got his first car. Then he goes to the drag strip with his new 4 banger and tells the racers with 30 yrs experience how they are wrong. @penguinpower but its good to give some push back. the nerds wanna take over the house. not on my watch lol That’ s partially why I started this thread. Far too many newbies here who are too dogmatic about their measurements dogma. There is plenty of evidence showing its inadequacies. Paul McGowan and many others have given good info on it. But the new know it alls don't accept it |
BTW have you noticed that all of dletch2's posts have been removed ....at least from this thread. I didn't ask for it. Quite honestly I'm inclined to let people like him to continue to show themselves. If they don't self destruct they loose all credibility. But then too, there are far to many measurebators with dogmatic opinions who have not developed the "agree to disagree mentality. No board can tolerate very many of them and we are getting more than our share. |
@audition_ audio So even when dletch2 does his informal blind tests, he only proves that in his system and at that moment his taste says that one component betters another. Indeed, what has been proven? It seems that some here want to get away from all biases as if that is even possible? Suppose the guy next to you or the operator gives an approving gesture or says "Wow!" every time he likes the sound? Then what bias kicks in? We are human, different & unique, Not machines. But even machines often have bias Seriously dltech2, you have to come up with something better than cults. You are wasting my time with these stretches. You are the one asking us to join the blind listening cult and telling us that without this method we are being duped. We are not asking you to change anything in your regimen we just propose that it doesnt accomplish what you think in all cases and are not asking you to join our cult. Make no mistake, as per your definition, these are both cults apparently. I Think he believes that its just a matter of putting on a blindfold. From what I have read, there is a lot more to it and really is not worth the time considering the results. |
If you want to learn this stuff the odds of running into someone like me who really does understand and can actually explain it are slim to none. This kind of renaissance man is a thing of the past because we have been sold the idea of the "Expert". He/She supposedly knows a very large amount about a small subject. But I have lamented many times that the various experts know a lot about their specific ingredient which goes into the pie. And the amount of experts needed to build a pie may be 10-20-25, etc. But no one knows what the pie should taste like. Therefore the pie is often quite inferior to the one grandma used to make and she only had a 5th grade education. This is not to belittle education but the process itself which is often quite flawed. |
@elapid a reasonable man, shown data that destroys his beliefs will change his beliefs to fit the data. If audiophiles are not reasonable are you any more reasonable for being here? Your account can be easily erased since you are new w/ 3 posts so far. The rest of the dribble is just more psychological projection. If you want to blind test then do it right. But waste your own time not mine. |
@rlb61 Measurements often can be irrelevant because a component or cable that measures great can sound awful, whereas distortion may sound quite pleasing. In the final analysis, all that matters is what you hear and enjoy. One of my worst purchases was a piece which had great measurements. I couldn't wait to get rid of that piece. |
I agree with that approach. However, helping and learning is the reason i and most are here. As @jjss49 had pointed out
We seem to be in a time where differing views are not well tolerated. Some take it as an offense against their ego. Then they spend more time defending their ego than their position or POV. This often happens when someone Can't defend their statements or POV. But rather than admit their error, they try to defend their honor. At that point the discussion goes sideways and no one gains anything
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