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Because we listen to jazz, blues, pop, r&b and sometimes it mixes all together. There are some people who don't always fit into the rap/thug checkbox. I respect rock, jazz, blues, Latin Jazz etc. etc. Lightnin Hopkins" Blues Hoot" Duke Pearson "The Right Touch" two albums that would blow most others away. Actually my two favorite albums. Blues and Jazz. The line up for musicians on the Right Touch is a whose who of great musicians. Ask a lot of rock bands and the respect for Lightnin Hopkins is legendary. Some of the hip hop guys listen to other things. It's called musical versatility. You should try it one day. Some of us know more about genres that what's been played on the radio the last 3 years. If I comment on it I have listened to it extensively on my high end system.
We listen to the type of music we like, whatever the genre. There are some members that listen to Death Metal, Rap is produced a hell of a lot better than that.
I’d say the only reason not to listen to Rap on a high-end system is due to the extremely compressed digital. On the DR scale, Rap/Hip Hop is the most compressed music I’ve seen. (Some have an average of 4 or 5).
I can’t enjoy listening to any type of music when it’s severely compressed.
You could try to say the same thing about Punk Rock.
There will always be some segment of the population that will wake up in the morning and scream "F#%K YOU!!!" to the rest of the world. They tend to write, play and produce their music accordingly..and anyone can listen to it however they wish. It’s a free country. I like it that way.
Lots of bass is definitely an attribute. Audiophiles like bass as well right, as long as there is some quality to go with quantity? Rap/Hip hop recordings are fertile grounds for that and sometimes other unique audio treats as well resulting from sampling and mixing other recordings into the new one. It can be rewarding sonically but still hit or miss like most things. Depends what floats your boat.
You need a good system though that can go loud without distorting, clipping, compressing, etc. to get best results. Sound familiar? Producing lots of quality bass is hard work. Underpowered, undersized systems will be challenged. I suspect if they can do the job well with a variety of rap/hip hop, there is a good chance that it will not break a sweat with most of the rest ever. That's almost always a good thing.
I feel my system is much better overall for using rap/hip hop music to help evaluate it as well as all the more traditional stuff that people have used for this purpose over the years.
How is tater's question veiled racism? It's a valid question he's asking about whether accuracy is important to music that generally uses computer generated, often bloated sonics, low quality samples, high compression and is optimized for a club environment. I know Rick Rubin has an audiophile system and cares about sound quality, and I'm sure Russell Simmons and jz have elaborate systems as well.
Let's see its his second thread devoted to why rap is either not music or not worth listening too in just a few days plus he brought up the exact same subject in a totally unrelated thread. Now I didn't call it veiled racism, I said "its beginning to smack of veiled racism" and quite frankly given the relentless trashing of music that is largely produced by and listened to African Americans, it does make you wonder. Or at least it does me sorry if that offends anyone or if my reply was to strongly worded. I wish there could be more tolerance in the world of music and of people.
Mr. Taters is on a roll with his seemingly innocuous, but essentially rhetorical questions. Is Mr. Taters obsessive, perhaps? Might he actually be a closet Rapper? Kinda like those preachers and politicians who fling fire and brimstone at whatever they purport to find abominable. And then they are found out.
But if so or not, to what end? Or does Mr. Taters have some peculiar agenda?
My questions are not meant to be rhetorical although some may find them to be so.
@lowrider57 yup financially the surburban fan is the key. They spend more on concert tickets fashion and media as a whole. A lot of the rap entrepreneurs have figured that out and maximize this opportunity. Rap is in arenas now more than ever. It's more lucrative than ever because of the grandkids of the baby boomers who children moved out to suburbia to start their families. 12 to 25 year old Caucasian fan bases are the financial key to the recent success financially of the rap genre. Look on YouTube and see who is sitting at the front row of the concerts. It's not the 13%of African American population. About 5% of African Americans can't stand rap so it's not the 8% that's left that drives rap. It's primarily Caucasian suburbia as well as rural America.
jond, if someone suggests rap is not music (but rather some other performance art form) it's not necessarily a knock. And even if someone finds it annoying or offensive it has nothing to do with their stance on race. You're reading things into this that are not necessarily there. In a real debate or a court of law what you're saying would fall flat. If you simply want to inflame others who aren't paying attention to the facts then you are on the right track.
It's a form of white privilege to assert that in a racially biased society, the USA, that something is not about race. You are using your whiteness to deny non-whites the legitimacy of their experiences. The issue of race has been one of the defining issues in US history since the early 16th century. To deny this is to be the equivalent of a Holocaust denier. Whether it was minstrel shows, blues, jazz or R&B it was generically referred to as "race music" which was only taken seriously after it was appropriated and crossed-over by white performers. So when someone claims that rap/hip-hop is not even music, whether they intended it or not, they are continuing a century old tradition of marginalizing black performers which can legitimately be seen as a form of racial bias. Sometimes the phrase "it's not about race" is the real inflammatory statement.
I think that anything you listen to deserves high fidelity reproduction, whether you consider it music or not. You'll enjoy it more with a good system. That's my opinion.
That said, if the content has no melody, then it's not music. Melody is the substance of music; no melody, no music. Simple as that. If you want to get technical, harmony and rhythm are outgrowths of the melody, which is the core. You can have only chords and a repetitious drum beat, but that's like having an empty box with nice wrapping paper.
Of course, you could call anything you want music. That's in the realm of opinion. I can call my cat a dog, but that doesn't make my feline a canine. I hope we can agree that you wouldn't call a building with no foundation, no roof, crooked walls and a few doors and windows a good house. It may be where you live, and you have every right to love it as your home, but that doesn't make it a sound structure. Strumming chords is not a song; repeating a rhythm on drums is not music. That's not racist, rigid, opinionated or narrow-minded. It's just fact. And it still allows you to enjoy someone speaking rhythmically over an ostinato rhythm in high fidelity.
It's still an unfair presumption. It's saying, "I know what you're thinking and what's in your heart." It's very unfair. I was largely raised by a black lady who I loved. I worked under black men and I worked side by side with black boys. I formed and played in a band with a black friend when I was in high school. I have spent my adult life playing a lot of black music, listening to a lot of black music and supporting political candidates who I think cares about minority causes. I would never support one who I thought did not.
I grew up in the old south. I knew men, and sadly, kids who thought black people were inferior. You know the story, you've seen it in movies and tv all your life and maybe you grew up with it, too. I'll not have you putting me in with those miserable people I knew long ago. If you do you are making a big mistake. Excuse me if I don't sit here and take this quietly.
So, onhwy61, if I suggest that Andy Warhol's Campbell's soup cans may not actually be art, am I continuing a tradition of bashing gays?
No, because the art itself is separate from the artist. My opinion of Warhol's art has absolutely nothing--I repeat NOTHING--to do with his sexuality. You think it's all connected. It's not. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Lighten up.
Tostadosunidos, I am not accusing you of racial bias. I am simply pointing out that the line of argument you take is similar to that taken historically by racially bias people. Black music was always referred to as simple and primitive. People called Duke Ellington "jungle music". Bebop was a bunch of junkies blowing noise. And let's not forget that young white males and especially females had to be protected from sexual rhythms of Chuck Berry and Little Richard. There's a real history in this country of bashing black music by people intent upon keeping blacks in their place. Are you one of those people? I doubt it. But I would argue that practically everyone raised in a racially biased society will bear elements of that bias.
onhwy61, excellent post, there is nothing in American history as fundamental as racism with anti-intellectualism a close second .
As Cicero said, "He who does not understand history remains forever a child "
Americans blame everyone and everything for the decline of our great country except the real cause, the American voters massive ignorance
of history renders them fools forever .
I live in the city of Alameda, which is an island in San Francisco Bay, right next to Oakland. A while ago, when I pulled off the freeway in Oakland on my way home, I saw a truck in front of me for an auto stereo installer with a sign that read:
"If it's too loud...
You're too old"
Not to say that hip-hop wouldn't sound good on a hi-end system, but the point of a high-end system is detail, clarity and imaging. It strikes me that the most desired qualities in a system for hip-hop would be the ability to produce high sound levels of deep bass, good dynamics on the high end and mid-range clarity. I don't think the kinds of natural detail you look for in chamber music are of much importance in high-level hip-hop.
While it's always nice to look at some $35,000+ hi-end loudspeakers, most younger listeners (and I assume that hip-hop listeners are younger) aren't going to have that kind of loot to drop on loudspeakers. The kind of speaker that many of us would want for listening to jazz, classical, or even bluegrass music, at the $2000 price point, wouldn't be able to put out high sound levels of deep bass, let alone do so for an extended period of time.
But at $2000/pair, it would be easy for a hip-hop fan to acquire some good PA speakers that would keep him/her happy. Now before y'all audiophiles have a cow, I want to qualify this statement. I'm all about value for your limited audio dollar. At the lower end of the price spectrum, I feel that PA speakers will provide a better value for music that calls for high sound levels and not particularly cares much about the natural tonal qualities of acoustic instruments. Hip-hop and a lot of rock fall into that category.
If you look on Craigslist, you can readily find bands selling PA speakers with 15" bass drivers (there's no replacement for displacement), horn mids and highs, capable of high sound levels for very little wattage. For a hip-hop fan, I think $1200 on some decent PA speakers will be a much better value than some used mini-monitor better suited to chamber music.
This (stupid) question reveals thinly veiled race/culture issues on the OP's part. Music is music for crying out loud. I have some hip hop and rap selections in my collection that are every bit as intricately engineered as any Jazz or classical recording. The more important question is why do so many people believe this is a valid question?
@ml8764ag Falling in to what traps. He knows what he is doing. We all know what his "language" means. If you think folks are not smart enough to see what he is doing then you are slow. Music is music I listen to it all. I respect it all. I guess I will get put on punishment because I fell for the trap. Lol. It's only music!
That is what I have been saying since the start of the conversation. I don't know why everyone gets in a fit over this. All this talk about racism has nothing to do with this. It's just a matter of common sense. Thanks for understanding what I am trying to say and I appreciate you're Input.
"Whether it was minstrel shows, blues, jazz or R&B it was generically referred to as "race music" which was only taken seriously after it was appropriated and crossed-over by white performers."
Case in point, Paul WHITEman and his orchestra gave a mainstream white legitimacy to early jazz or the early Louis Armstrong features where he was dressed in jungle garb to showcase his artistry? Racism towards music and culture may not be as blatant as is was in those times but is certainly insidious throughout our society whether we care to acknowledge it or not. Not to point the finger at anyone participating on this thread, not the point. I don’t generally care for rap either but consider it an outgrowth of and part of the American musical experience. Excellent points and great post Onhwy61.
Everyone knows racism was rampant in 20th-century American culture and sadly, exists still today. I saw and heard plenty growing up in the south of the 50's and 60's. But it's possible to be hypersensitive about it. Every single single comment about anything tied to a minority culture is not necessarily racist. Every political opposition to our president is not necessarily race-related. People can like or dislike something for itself. Don't be so quick to accuse people you don't know of bias when the evidence is not there. You might be doing something worse than the thing you're wrongly accusing the other guy of doing.
@tostadosunidos I wasn't "quick to accuse" nor did I necessarily accuse at all I just felt something should be said after Taters harping on rap/hip-hop over 3 different threads here. Though at this point I think it's pretty apparent that Taters is a classic internet troll and probably best ignored at this point.
Jond, by that term I meant accusing with no real basis, jumping to conclusions--sorry if I was imprecise with the words on that. I don't know Taters and so I don't know if he's a racist or not--I will certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. We're on a hi-fi appreciation site talking about music and I don't read racism into anything I read from his remarks (and I've probably read all the posts on all the threads you mention. Obviously he and Calvinj are passionate about their respective feelings about the music and I like that. Let's keep the discussion to the music and not get off on tangents or run into areas where the referees have to come in and decide if "defamatory remarks" have been made. This place is usually civil and that's a breath of fresh air (check out ESPN or Cleveland Plain Dealer sports discussions if you want to see how bad it can get).