CDC, thanks for the reply. Could you describe what was poorly implemented in the ATC's. I have never heard them. Thanks. |
CDC,
I am really unsure about your rationale unless you have listened to a number of active monitors (good ones). I'm not talking about bad active monitors, I'm talking about really good ones. Have you seen or heard any good ones. Thanks in advance. |
Thanks for the brief post Niki (haha), I appreciate the time it took and the thought that went into it. I have spent the last week casually demoing a number of monitors (luckily I live in Southern California and LA has its share of pro audio dealers. None of them have ideal rooms or associated equipment but they are friendly and appear truly interested in helping, albeit the over/under on body piercings apears to be 10.
At the end of the day, i will try a few pair at home to see what's up. I really liked the Genelecs and the Dynaudios but I cant believe the sound coming out of the small enclosures. I will post my findings and will likely be burned at the stake as a witch but there seems to be EXTREME value to be found. Peace. |
Shardone,
What does IMD sound like? Could this be what everyone describes they hear through passive crossovers? Apparently, having an active crossover feeding an amplifier for each driver could provide advantages over the amplifier feeding a passive crossover and then the driver?
Maybe this absence of IMD is what everyone in the ZU Druid/Definition camp describe as being missing from their listening experience. Comments. |
Shadorne,
Thanks for the reply and I appreciate the answer. Its all beginning to make some sense and the case for actives at least dictates further exploration.
I must admit I'm afraid to ask you the time for fear of discovering how a watch works. For instance, where is the one guy in the world with the absolute reference gear that measures a true and accurate second? Do you think we can get THAT guy to fix IMD and Jitter? LOL. Peace. |
Shadorne,
I hope you realize i was just giving you a hard time. i for one appreciate the time people like you take to educate all of us. Just like college, it is absorbed by some, not by others. There is so much snake oil in our hobby that is can be truly aggravating. Thanks for attaching some true science to what it is we are hearing.
As far as actives go, no one on this thread has been able shoot any valid holes in the science of why an active monitor is not a better solution. I have read some answers on this thread that basically refer to tone controls. In other words, if an active monitor of very high quality is inherently more accurate, with less distortion and more lifelike dynamics than a similarly priced seperates setup, then what would I get to change. Others appear to want to adjust the tone to suit their tastes. All of this is fine and well but then why not just get tone controls? Kind of humorous. I like tubes, I like solid state, I like digital and I like analog. But those who are certain their approach is absolute are absolutely wrong. |
Steve, I would never argue that you are right or wrong, the fun part of the hobby is the debate.
As far as the d/a converter being built into active monitors being the future.....well, the future must be here then. Dynaudio already has that in their Air monitor series...24 bit, 192 d/a conversion. Meridian has done it for years, Genelec has it. Meridian offers upgrades so in their case, you are actually provided an upgrade path. I haven't heard any of these other than Meridian and they were out of my price range at the time so I paid little attention.
Your example of receivers and your knowledge of "the little switching amps most use" is based on assumption. I'm not saying some manufacturers don't use poor quality amplification, that happens in every market where a price point is targeted but PMC uses Bryston at a certain price point and Flying Mole at their entry level. I haven't heard either so I will remain open minded. McIntosh made some pretty nice receivers in their day and their integrateds today are as well. ALOT of integrated amps are thrilling their owners every day and they require 1 less set of interconnects, 1 less power cable, etc. Bel Canto has gone completely to the switching amp camp and their d/a converter and integrated has a usb input.
I'm not saying any active monitor sounds better than any seperates. I am saying that I will be open minded and check them out because I love the music and thoroughly enjoy the quest. Many posters however would benefit from objectively considering that the possibility exists that there might be a different approach that could achieve a very pleasing audio experience. Please post the active speakers you have owned so I will not waste my time listening to those. I do not necessarily agree that a high quality active monitor/speaker is more expensive than seperates. I heard some that, although not of the level I would consider for my own setup, were $499 and just add a Red Wine Audio modded iPod would kick some serious backside for very little money.
There are MANY technologies that us audiophiles have collectively dismissed prior to truly evaluating the benefits. Professional audio tends to be more open minded as they require incremental sound improvements but, if it delivers, they will embrace it. Room treatments? Room correction? Compact D/A converters? Hard disk based music storage and playback? Gordon Rankin at Wavelength and Steve at Empirical have some pretty ingenious solutions that have closed the gap for computer based audio to meet and exceed cd based solutions. Take a look at the new iMac.....$1799 with 320 gig and a fabulous 24 inch screen, feed that into a high quality usb dac into a nice amplification/speaker chain and there you go. EXTREMELY low jitter digital playback. The earth is NOT flat and I believe we should always check out options to see if it offers a better alternative....it may or may not but to not look is surely an incorrect approach. |
Niki, hello yourself. I had 2 systems going and am consolidating to one serious system and am going to set up wifi/imac systems in some other rooms. Thus the quest to examine some simple solutions:imac (itunes data on a NAS) to a dac to an active monitor possibly. I'm tired of the cable voodoo and just want to settle in to listen to some music in my other rooms.
Squeegybug, thank you for your comments and I am sure your experience with actives must have been dissatisfactory for you to feel as you do. I notice you have Zu Druids and Bel Canto amps so you obviously enjoy a different type of reproduction than I do, but to each his own. I owned some Zu Tones and some Zu Druids in tertiary systems some time back and they were fun. Real fun. Zu's cables are also a tremendous value.
BUT ZU'S ARE HARDLY THE BENCHMARK FOR NEUTRAL SOUND REPRODUCTION.
They are fun, they boogie and I may purchase another pair someday but if you are mastering on them then your recordings will likely be a touch hot on the frequency extremes since Zus are rolled off there. I understand the new Zu presence will alleviate the intentional rolloff (check their site) on the tweeter and the built in ACTIVE subwoofer should fill out the bottom. |
Steve,
Thanks for the list and I appreciate you taking the time to compile such a comprehensive sampling. This is a funny hobby isn't it? In examining the list the speakers on the list I have heard all have good attributes to some extent however the dude that uses Nautilus 802s must only master mid range and boomy bass with a hump here and there (a joke ok). I heard somewhere that Hoffman had switched to Tetras but I may be confusing him...I just heard that there are a number of insiders that have made the switch to Tetra.
As you can see from some of my posts, I am just a hobbyist but in theory, the active crossover feeding a properly executed bi or tri-amped 2 or 3 way speaker seems to have a technical advantage over a passive speaker with a passive crossover with a random choice of speaker cable and a random choice of amplification. Do you see my point? Some people enjoy modifying the characteristics of their reproduction to suit their own tastes , which is cool, and I am looking for an integrated solution that suits my tastes. Maybe I will find it and maybe I won't but I am a bit tired of all of the electrical, cable and component variables inherent in, and to some extent nurtured by, our hobby. I would REALLY appreciate teams of designers to combine the best of class equipment, optimize it and put it out to market with the least amount of compromise and variability. A nice neutral and relatively "flattish" frequency response is what I am looking for.
I live in Southern California and we all know the price of real estate out here (its still crazy, don't let the media fool you). It's a funny exercise but I calculated the economic footprint of my systems (a dedicated room, a corner of another 2 rooms) and the dollar amount of the incremental real estate required for proper system setup is over $200,000 (approximately 400 total square feet) in my housing development. I will keep my dedicated room for now but I am open minded about searching for a solution that may even be wall mountable, hangable from the ceiling or something thereabouts that will yield excellent sound quality. Maybe I should have explained it better in the beginning but as close to a turn key solution is my quest and I will start with the speakers.
I am not interested in building a shrine to audio reproduction (as can be seen in SO many of the pictures people post of their systems....are you kidding me?) I am interested in an excellent reproduction of the music. Any and all input is appreciated and yet, a blanket dismissal of a well executed active solution is of no use. I am looking for open minds. If you prefer a passive setup and yet you heard XYZ active monitor at CES that was intriguing, that would be useful info! Mr Tennis, you seem to be pretty sold on panel speakers which is also cool however they do not tend to integrate well in a typical, well "balance" home....besides, flapping bass is not pleasing to me.
Steve, how do you like the Hsu subs and which models do you have? I have never listened to them and was unaware they were considered musical. Would appreciate your comments. Peace. |
Squeegybug, I have been doing a bit of research and demoing. Just to clarify a point regarding PMC speakers, the "activated" versions to which you refer above are likely the DB1S-a and the TB2S-a which are activated in the manner you describe. The best I can tell, these are entry level portables rather than the type of speaker I described in my original post.
The PMC AML1 is, in fact, an active, with an active digital crossover and each speaker is bi-amplified with Bryston designed amplification. I guess it is their cost no object approach to actives.
I have narrowed it down to the Genelec 8050A and the PMC AML1 and will have both in my home soon to test and play over an extended time. This was just a clarification of your earlier post and not meant to flame as you obviously know alot more about the studio than I ever will. Peace. |
CDC, I am still evaluating the Genelec 8050A and the PMC AML1. The AML1 is absolutely amazing and the bass produced I am still unable to understand how they do it. Folks, these are small speakers, easy to place, image like crazy (I am seated about 8 feet utilizing the Cardas method for speaker placement) and are just very pleasing overall. The closest comparison I can make is to the Wilson Benesch curve however the AML1's seem to produce a little better bass. I know, you may doubt that these small boxes can achieve that but you just have to listen for yourself. The Genelecs are also quite good however the midrange balance and top end smoothness is not quite up to the AML1. The low bass produced by the Genelecs however is slightly better....very slight but additional kick is there. I have the AML1's hooked up to a Benchmark USB Dac which is connected to a new iMac using iTunes/Apple lossless.
I encourage you to listen the the AML1 if you get the chance. They are fun, very dynamic and very detailed and smooth across the frequencies. I may sell the Genelecs or I may set them up in another room. The actives don't take up much room and have really allowed me some lattitude with the wife re: placement. Good luck. |
Cgh1,
Thanks for the post and the inquiry. I still have the PMC AML-1 monitors connected and have been listening to them exclusively since my last post. I am torn whether to sell the Genelecs (only 100 hours or so) and take a hit on what I paid for them or simply to keep them and set up another system in another room. I will likely sell them as my experience with 2nd and 3rd systems indicates that I have to be kicked out of my main room to consider the other rooms.
I am also experimenting with different dacs right now which is why I have not followed up with this thread....sorry if I left anyone hanging.
The PMC monitors are simply amazing. Listen to them if you have the chance. They are fairly rare so you will have to do some searching but they are well worth the search. One bit of information for all of us is I am beginning to see some price increases on foreign made gear due to the extraordinarily low value of the US dollar. Anyone else? If AML1s end up exceeding $10,000 US per pair due to the exchange rate, that would really make them hard to find.
Good luck to all. |
