There are 4 types of vintage DD turntables:
1. DJ DD turntables ( like - Technics 1200). Most have pitch control.
2. Broadcast and studio DD TTs (like - Technics SP10mk2,mk3 or EMT950, EMT948). Don't have pitch control by default. It was available like the extra feature. In general these TT have much better SQ compared to DJ TT.
SQ is very good by any standard.
3. Audiophile DD TTs (Kenwood KD07, Micro Seiki DD TTs, Yamaha gt 2000, Thorense 701). This group mostly don't have pitch control. SQ is very good by any standard, similar to
Broadcast and studio TTs.
4. Cheap consumers DD TTs. |
Hi @lewm ,
I didn’t list all good DD turntables.
But you can’t compare, for example, SL1200 to EMT950. They have a very different “hunting” design.
All this Hi-End reviewers-sellers like Fremer try to sell belt drive "golden toilets" with cheap toy car motors that ruin rhythm and pace of music interpretation. Belt drive transforms Classical piano music or other music with very fine sense of rhythm like Modern Jazz Quartet to unconnected set of sounds.
I got rid off Nottingham Analog Specedeck for Lenco 78 and then for EMT948.
My friend, classical musician, sold all his belt-drive TTs (including Sota) and bought EMT950.
Other friend rid off Linn LP12 for EMT948.
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Here is an interesting site about DD turntables: http://www.edsstuff.org/dd_museum.pdf Here are their comments about Luxman PD-444: "Top-of-the-line Lux form the end of the 70s. Now this is a deck where you can mount your Fidelity Research FR66 or SME 3012 quite easily. Typical for all Lux decks: The plinth made out of brushed aluminium with rosewood sides. The PD-444 is a fine deck maybe a little overpriced at around 1000,- Dollars on the 2nd hand market. " This site from: 2000, so, prices for this gear in number of times less then today :-( |
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I can attest to the current crop of higher end belt drive TT using speed sensing devices to feedback to the speed controller so operating in a similar fashion to top end DD tables.
A friend has exactly that set up on his table. How slow this system will react to speed changes to adjust itself! IMHO it is a very bad engineering. |
Fremer is a salesmen, he is not an engineer.
For most of audiophiles "DD sound" associated with Technics 1200.
One friend of mine who had tens of vintage DD, ID and BD turntables in his home called Technics 1200 the worst DD turntable ever made.
"Digital" sound of some DD turntables came from "cogging effect" of multi-pole core electrical engines but not from speed adjustment. Coreless motor DD with descent speed controller and light platter sounds very "analog".
Belt drive lover have to knew that vinyl lacquer cutting for vinyl is done on DD turntable.
So guys, in any case you listen hated DD.
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In 70x the best most talented engineers worked in analog electronic industry.
Today best engineers work in Hi-Tech. Most of modern audio engineers are morons.
Modern main stream hi-end went far away from live music sound to virtual synthetic sound that doesn’t exist in real live.
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My experience shows opposite.
I have used Nottingham Analog Spacedeck with Spacearm for 8 year,
when I compared it to my friend's Lenco L75 (with a simple RB250 arm).
We played classical piano music, and I was shocked how much Lenco was more precise in rhythm reproduction.
Piano playing had a sense and message with Lenco and
it was like a set of unconnected sounds
with Nottingham.
After that I bought raw Lenco L78. I added a heavy plywood plinth and vintage SME 3009 tonearm.
I got much better PRAT, bass details, tone (especially on piano and organ), separation of instruments on complex music and musicality.
In term of dynamic Lenco and Nottingham where similar.
Nottingham wasn't a bad turntable but I clearly preferred Lenco. |
In belt drive, fast spinning motor has vibration, rubber belt has compliance, and plus to it friction of a needle on vinyl in not a constant.
You can get an ideal belt drive only in laboratory conditions.
I like idler and good DD, but I hate belt drive like many other modern Hi-End delusions like:
low sensitive box speakers, bright tweeters, 1KW transistor amplifiers, $10K cables ... |
All modern Hi-End TT producers are small garage companies.
They don't have enough money and professional R&D to design and build DD turntables.
Relatively big Japanese producers like Audio-Technica and Technics can afford to build DD turntables. |
Some vintage DD are not mid-low END.
For example, in 70x EMT950 costed 15000DM. It is around $23000 today.
Studios and radio station bought EMT950 and not moron audiophiles fooled by advertising.
These dumy audiophiles don’t want to see around. They don’t go to listen a live music.They don’t want to start thinking out of box. They buy tower speakers with 85dB sensitivity and 20K$+ price tug with 1000 Watt horrible sounded transistor amplifiers.
But everybody has his own way...
P.S. My fried musician, flute soloist, when he heared EMT950 (at his friend home), very fast rid off of his Sota and run to buy EMT950. |
Mid price belt drive turntables (like Nottingham Spacedeck) can sound generally OK.
But what is mostly annoying for me, they broke a rhythm of music.
For simple pop music it is not too important. Even there are some kind of jazz and classical music that that rhythm accuracy doesn't make a big difference too. But a music with a fine sense of
rhythm like most of classical piano music is fallen in parts (if it played on belt drive turntable).
So, for people who like this kind of music or sensitive to PRAT, using a top vintage DD turntable seems to be a good idea. My experience shows that good and not expansive idler drive TT, like Lenco, can do a similar job.
Regards,
Alex. |
The question is: How much will cost the belt drive turntable which outperforms EMT950?
Yes I know. There are great belt drive TTs, like, Micro Seiki 5000, 8000, 3 motor Clear Audio, and others...
In any case, all people who use these best belt drive turntables listen records done using lacquer cutting produced by DD machine. :-)
It also depends from a preferences of a person.
There are a number of famous audiophile who can afford almost anything, but they prefer modified Garrard 301. |
I had Nottingham Analog Specedeck for 8 year and I have EMT 948 since 2011.The difference in sound quality is huge for EMT.
I have a friend who had: EMT 948, MicroSeiki belt drive and Technicks SP10mk2. He liked EMT and MicroSeiki, but didn’t like Technicks.
Other my friend a flute soloist sold his Sota belt drive for EMT950.
So called, home market equipment made today in garage is designed by mediocre engineers, who don’t have enough education and talent to work in Hi-Tech.
In 30x-70x the best engineers worked in audio industry, like today in Hi-Tech.
Studer, EMT, Klangfilm professional audio equipment is state of art of German engineering and better than any equipment designed and made in Japan.
Regards,
Alex. |
Hi @rauliruegas ,
Yes, I know that EMT tonearms are not a "state of art" as well their phonostages both tube and transistors.
But their TT (except models: 928 and 938) and cartridges are really very good.
EMT950 and EMT948 where on the same market at the same time with Technics SP10mk2.
Why studios and radio stations that have enough money bought EMT that where 2 times more expansive?
Similar, why studios who have enough money bought Studer tape recorders and not Tascam and Otari?
You can’t judge these turntables by datasheet measurement. These measurements can be done different. Measurements in audio is a very complicated topic.
I know many people (who had many different and expansive Hi-End turntables) use and like idler drive and DD EMT turntables.
Bottom line, we all have a different tests.
Despite I listen mostly jazz and classical music, for my test, even best belt drive TTs sound too soft and too polite. If I had extra money I would go for nice idler drive like modified Garrard 301 or EMT 930 and I would leave my EMT948 as the second TT.
Every year I go to Montreal Audio Fest. I also heard "main stream" Hi-End systems in dealer show rooms and at people home. I also had Dynaudio speakers and Plinius integrated amplifier and I haply rid of from this stuff.
I can differently say, "main stream" Hi-End like: Dynaudio, Focal, B&W, Wilson Audio, Krell, Mark Levinson, Plinius ... - is not my cup of tee.
I like good hi-sensitive speakers and I like speakers with a good tone, like: Harbeth, Spendor Clasics, Qued ESL57.
Regards,
Alex. |
Hi @mijostyn ,
You never have listened EMT950 or EMT948 in you live.
How can you judge it?
I know that most of EMT collectors who have in their collection EMT927 (the best idler drive turntable ever built) prefer sound of EMT950. Because 950 is more accurate.
ALL vinyl record lacquers disc (from 70x up today) are cut by DD turntable machines. Older lacquer where cut by worm-gear turntable machines. So, in any case you listen hated by you DD when you listen you records :-)
I know there are a very few EMT turntable in North America. As result, US and Canadian audiophile don’t have any idea about these turntables sound. All their experience base on guesses and fairy tails.
But, on other hand, EMT turntable are very popular in Europe, Japan and Russia. And they are very appreciated in these countries.
Regards,
Alex. |
