Thanks, I missed that one. Al must have published his before mine. |
Wait a minute, the mods deleted something Al said?
Geoff as well?
Someone must have very thin skin to be offended by both sides of this argument. 🤔
All the best,
Nonoise |
as @chayro points out on another thread: For the millionth time, why does everybody ignore the fact that the Aczel crowd never maintained that all cables sound the same. Their theory was that all differences between cables are due solely to inductance, resistance and capacitance values, which are easily measured and can drastically change the frequency response of a speaker. So, yes - cables with the same LCR values will sound the same. So they maintain. Whether it’s true or not is another story. In other words, all cables sound different unless they measure exactly the same. For those who are strictly in the measurement camp, have you measured the LCR of the various cables that you say can't sound different? And for the latest posters on this already, beaten to death meme, double blind listening tests are nothing more than a cheap parlor trick. One has to listen over a period of time in order to ascertain anything. Listening is an emotional event. You can do the same thing with two different TV sets with one being measurably and visually better but by swapping them out over and over you can arrive at a 50/50 chance of picking the worse over the best and it wouldn't prove a thing. All it would prove is that you could trick someone under the right conditions. All the best, Nonoise |
That dog won’t hunt.
Never did.
Time to go Ol’ Yeller on her. |
@ieales,
That's some wild swings on the KEF LS50. I just figured that if JBL rates my speaker at 6 ohms, they'd probably venture down lower than a 8 ohm rated speaker would so best to err on the side of caution and go with 14 gauge.
Also, I'm rarely spot on but it's close enough for the girls I go with. 👍
All the best,
Nonoise |
l@ieales
When I said "every chart I looked at" I was referring to those that recommend cable gauge and length, factored in with amp output. A few of them left out the category for ohms but those that did, it changed the recommendations some. Example: even though 16 gauge is sufficient for cable lengths up to 36 feet, if your dealing with a 6 ohm speaker as opposed to a 8 ohm speaker, go for 14 gauge.
As for "you’ll never know until you try", I think it speaks for itself.
And as or "the manual just won’t cut it", my personal experience tells me that despite the guidelines laid out by the pros, there’s still a lot of wiggle room in there for something that goes against the grain for reasons not yet known.
You’re not confused: I’m just somewhat a contrarian in some matters. 😄
All the best,
Nonoise |
@hifiman5 +1
I went up a gauge, from 16 to 14, with Tempo Electric speaker wire and there's not a trace of brightness or etch even though the extension in the highs (and lows) increased. What I have is an incredible see through ability along with a healthy dose of coherence that for once, actually separates musicians and instruments.
It's the same old "hearing things that I didn't before" like a 1-2-3-4 beat on a instrument that I thought was just used on the intro but instead, keeps on repeating all the way through the cut. It can be easily heard now and it's not the least bit distracting, and turns out to be essential to the piece. It was meant to be heard, but every cable I have, including the 16 gauge Tempo Electric SC didn't reveal it. So, cable gauge must be taken into account as well. The same goes for the harpsichord in The Four Seasons: I can now hear every note played without distraction.
I only went up to 14 gauge because my new speakers are 6 ohm and every chart I looked at said that regardless of cable length, ohm rating is a crucial determinate so I took the chance and it played out wonderfully.
You'll never know until you try something and just referring to the manual just won't cut it.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Sounds like loose lips sync slips. |
I don't get it. To claim "scientific reality" as a point of view, and then state that there wasn't a "significant difference" belies the point being made.
Scientific reality would reveal the slightest of differences, and a difference is just that, a difference. To move on from that juncture, what constitutes slight to someone could be significant to someone else, especially to audiophiles who value such differences.
For me, once I've heard better, it's very hard to go back. It's in the very nature of audiophiles to want better, inch by inch if necessary. This is, after all, a ground game, and who wants to give up ground because someone else says the difference isn't worth it?
I think we're beyond the OP's value judgement argument and have progressed to simply some stating that small differences aren't worth it and I say that is simply untrue.
All the best,
Nonoise
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A trolling we will go, a trolling we will go, hi ho the derry-oh, a trolling we will go.
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All of this dancing on the head of the pin and there’s still MORE room to relive the same arguments that seemed to have been settled many, many threads ago.
As this titanic thread sinks painfully into icy waters to a (justifiably) certain death, one can take solace if one were to look to the east and see yet another one on the horizon, steaming closer to eventually meet the same fate: another dance. This has to be a circle for audiophiles in Dantes Hell. Yes? Where’s Bill Murray when you need him? Or is it Rod Serling?
All the best,
Nonoise |
hifiman5,
Yes, every situation is unique and must be addressed accordingly.
I just wish everyone lived downline from some local dam using hydroelectric turbines for around the clock power. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
Agreed-WAY too much angst here. I should have not generalized as some people get some really crappy power but for me, I've found that just going into the wall with my amp gets me the best sound. Everything else goes in a power conditioner.
Even taking that into consideration, your specific solution involves what is coming out of your outlet. Yes, some mooks refrigerator directly upstream from you can affect things, and so do sun spots, but do they have equal weight? For everyone? This kind of reasoning is getting into "butterfly wings" territory.
All the best,
Nonoise |
dynaquest4, I agree that there is a point where a well made cord can't be made any better, but only as long as it stays within the criteria of the original cord that is said to be all one needs. It doesn't really solve the dilemma.
As for all those miles and miles of cable that are before that outlet and all the nasty and negative effects it's subjected to, it has nothing to do with what you're taking "from" the wall. That is the starting point. The only thing that matters is taking what's right there at the outlet and making sure you get the best out of it.
Everything before it are nothing more than miles and miles of red herrings.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Benjie, I like, and have used, your TV analogy as it clearly demonstrates the obvious: a better made cable can have an improvement.
Going from a well made, run of the mill, PC on my TV (a GTT PC) to a Zu Mission PC made a HUGE difference on my plasma TV. A cyclops with macular degeneration could see and appreciate the difference. Which begs the question: if our eyes can clearly see the difference, then why not our ears? (another can 'o metaphysical worms).
If only we can agree on this then the conversation (debate?) can focus on what price point is too much?
Oh, silly me. It's always been that.
All the best,
Nonoise
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The cables I have span a small amount from around $100 to just over $500, including the discounts for discontinued lines. I have solid core copper, solid core silver, silver plated copper, stranded and tinned stranded, Litz, most with terminations and a few with bare ends.
Just with that motley assortment I can tell the differences and from that I can tell that spending more can get you more. They all have great bang for the buck so I'm satisfied, even content not to spend more. That's a pittance to what others have spent so I guess there's value in that.
:-)
All the best,
Nonoise
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Maybe the conversation (debate?) should lessen the price delta between beer pocket magnet wire and champagne filigree cables to something more sensible.
There will always be an argument for doing things on the cheap and those who are advocates of that argument will never see the advantages of better cabling and their inherent costs. Yes, there is a limit to what is reasonable but that too, is in the eyes (ears and pocketbook) of the beholder.
Do whatever you like and stop trying to herd cats.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I like that you recommend using a good quality drum recording. I have a recording of Tony Manaisian's that's an extremely well done 16 bit demo using no equalization that does exactly what you describe. It's a jazz combo with lots of percussion techniques. It's now one of my go to recordings to evaluate my system.
All the best,Nonoise |
It's not so much being tricked but rather rising to the occasion. To let B.S. pass without comment serves only to reinforce it.
Happy New Year everyone!
Nonoise
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Since it's too late to edit my post, I'd like to correct the gauge of the Tempo Electric speaker wire. It's actually 14 gauge wire in a 9 gauge jacket.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Kraftsound, thanks for the leveling this thread dearly needed.
One point you made re: "stability of amp dependent on the impedance of the load" has been made before and should be used in every thread on cables. Not every cable can fulfill the need when there are so many variables involved.
Everyone should just use common sense and experiment. I've kept most of the cables I've ever bought and occasionally try them out whenever I change something in the equation (amp, speaker, tone controls, etc.) and use that as a guide.
Just a few days ago I stated, earlier in this thread, that the Zu Event mk1 speaker cables sounded the best in my system. My newish speakers gave me a Dickens of a time as the Accuton drivers are a bear to break in. I finally gave up after settling on the Zu cables and just yesterday, turned the treble boost all the way up on my Marantz and used the Ayre test CD to burn in the tweeter, cables and circuits at that setting. Now I was getting somewhere (all those variables).
It resulted in a much more relaxed treble as opposed to a boosted sound. The burn in helped tremendously. Not being satisfied, I tried some Tempo Electric speaker cables I had since they worked so well when I had the Tonian Labs TL-D1s. Viola! Treble extension is even better extended and defined without any sibilance. Mids are purer and not as forward and bass is better defined with lessened rear port emphasis in the room.
The Tempo Electric cables are just plain old 9 gauge, 4 nines, soft annealed, solid silver core cables in a larger gauge teflon jacket making air the primary dielectric. The sound I'm getting is so much closer to that of the Tonians that I'm somewhat shocked. That, and the price was about $280 back when I got them.
Everything is system dependent and there are no shortcuts. If one is truly into this hobby, then one must be open to and explore all possible avenues available to them.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I'm always amazed at what lengths people go to prove their hearing is sub par.
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You have to listen to something in order to ascertain something. It cannot be done on the fly. It takes time. Swapping out cables in a blind A/B test is nothing more than a parlor trick meant to beguile.
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I'd love to see this kind of discussion at the next big audio show. Bring all the wise cracking and insults and own it, on the floor, in front of everyone and I'll just watch and laugh.
Someone needs to call a priest to perform last rites on this thread.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I don't recall being that impressed (to put it kindly) with McIntosh gear regarding their status as high end, resolving gear. They do have the looks and their laurels to rest on to further their product line but aside from that.....
The point is that high end gear is necessary for the ability to hear differences and yet doesn't have to be costly. We've all (hopefully) traveled that path and are now at a point where a small change can and will extract it's pound of flesh.
Trained ears and the discipline developed to hear differences serves as a base point for all critical listening, which allows just plain old listening for pleasure's sake.
For every Roger Russell who's in the "all cable needs to be...." crowd there's a Professor Hawksford who says otherwise:
"I am not trying to say that this effect is necessarily significant, only that an error component is predicted by our theory and is shown by our measurements to exist."
Citing someone will only bring up someone else.
Who's to say that those differences aren't audible? I don't know of any study that says ALL cables measure the same. I've yet to see one. They are always different, albeit to small and varying degrees.
Our ears are incredibly refined instruments and like any instrument, can be tuned to detect differences of very small magnitudes. Tests show this to be true. I think what harms intelligent discussion is the standard yardsticks we use to measure, or rather, that some of us insist that those standard yardsticks are the ONLY measurement to go by. They are nothing more than gross generalizations. Rounding errors for simplicities sake.
Just as no two wires will measure identically, no two ears will either. I can hear small differences and have learned to appreciate them over the long haul. Others can too.
"Nuff said.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I have the Supra 2.5 and 3.4W speaker cables and they do have a wonderful sound to them, albeit at the expense of some detail and higher end info (shimmer, presence and decay). Don't get me wrong. In the right system they can lull you into la la land.
That wonderful midrange and succulent bass comes with a hint of smearing which masks some of the detail I mentioned. It's not much, but enough for me to look elsewhere. Tonian Labs speakers are internally wired with them as are the Clearwave Duet 6 monitors that I'm presently using. Neither one lacks in the treble (with the Tonian Lab TL-D1s the clear winner: that Raven super tweeter is among the best out there) so I can't figure out why being used as speaker cables they do what they do so it goes to show that there's more going on than can be explained.
There are no absolutes, save for the Zu Event SC which consistently perform better than the rest that I have in all areas and they are a Litz design of copper and silver plated copper. There's something about them that just sounds so right, and I wouldn't have dreamed of paying their full asking price and instead, got them at discount since they were superseded by a newer line.
All the best,
Nonoise
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It sounds like you simply reinforced some expectation and preference bias into a slanted test. The power of suggestion is not to be discounted. You don’t come across much different than the salesman. I agree that most cables are way overpriced, but what you did sounds like nothing more than an exercise in making your ends justify the means.
The fact that you don’t hear a difference isn’t an absolute. Just you don’t hear a difference. As for the "expensive" gear you bought, are they revealing enough, or just expensive? There are way too many variables in your scenario to quantify.
This place is filled with expensive, but not revealing, equipment for sale. I’ve heard this argument before.
Many times.
All the best,
Nonoise |
