Individual preferences are the heart of the hobby. Denial without experience is not. Products should be tried before judgement using manufacturers' instructions and a great amount of common sense (re: setup and settling time) and then judged accordingly. Let the chips fall where they may..
We should all be able to agree on that. 8^)
Dave
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Funny thing I just realized about blind testing: it can prove that those that think they see are really blind, but it cannot make those whom are blind see.
Dave |
Amen, dill. Please let that be the final nail in the coffin of this malicious nonsense.
Dave
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tls49,
That post by shadorne reminds me of a line in one of my favorite movies, "A Few Good Men": "Should we, or should we not, take the advice of the galactically stupid?"
Best to you tls49,
Dave
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"Setting fire to your money would make more sense than buying $5000 speaker cables."
More great and helpful "advice from the galactically stupid".
Dave
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Did you try the "ROUND" ones?
Dave |
Funny thing about blind testing: It can prove that those that think they see are really blind, but it cannot make those that are blind see.
Dave |
stanwal: "Trust your ears."
No arguing with that. Peace.
Dave
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So 12 gauge is enough, regardless of current flow, even with a 6000 w/ch@1 ohm, 158 amperes peak current amplifier? Good to know. Digging out that Radio Shack 12 gauge as I write.
I guess all that nonsense about the time-smearing effects of cheap dielectric, the noise-floor lowering benefits of proper construction geometry and superior shielding technology are all figments of the elite’s imagination? Wonder how they ever afforded that stuff, being so gullible and all?
Dave |
"I have some ocean front property for sale in Arizona."
Hilarious! How original. Fire bad.
Dave
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Is this the material you refer to, Jim?
"Just remember my previous post…data errors don’t happen in 1-meter, jitter is a non issue because of reclocking, and noise doesn’t impact the successful retrieval of a data stream…that’s the whole advantage of digital!"
I am not an expert on digital signal transmission, as I avoid it by using a one-box solution, but, either way, it has little to do with analog signal transmission, particularly with long runs of speaker wire, subject to time smearing of the audio signal as well as rejection of RF/EMI artifacts.
Dave
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Best I understand it, they use resistor/capacitor networks to tune the electrical characteristics of the cable to optimize the signal (as they see best) based on the type of component (SS vs tube) and the length of cable (resistance/capacitance/inductance), much like Transparent Audio, but with different sonic goals.
I would advise that you resist the urge to "dissect one". They are expensive and little would be learned by doing so, unless you are technically savvy and don’t care about resale value.
Best to you psag,
Dave |
Good analogy paieta. I can see both sides, but there IS both sides. To say that cables do not matter is to say that one is satisfied with compromises. Nothing at all wrong with that as long as it is acknowledged and understood.
I love listening to 60’s/70’s/80’s rock on my vintage system with Monster 12 gauge speaker wire and a Pioneer 10-band EQ. It sounds awesome. But when it comes to reproducing music with the intent of creating realism, I hold no pretenses as to its limitations.
Dave |
Jerry,
I feely admit that I did not understand your prior post nor this one very well. Could be me. Whatever the case, Happy New Year!
Dave
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Eeks! The grubbs are coming up out of the earth. |
Might want to reread those posts eddy.
Best to you,
Dave |
Okay, dill. Just want to clear up that I never offered any property at any time. In fact, just the opposite: "Fire Bad." I detest those types of posts.
Best to you dill and Happy New Year!
Dave |
Who are you guys talking to? Each other? All the guys that know better have checked out.
Dave |
Should we all decide, as shadorne has, to enclose our speakers in massive, flat wall cabinets, thus destroying any hope of time coherence, to use parametric equalizers to grossly alter the audio signal, and to consider electronic drums our audio reference, it is entirely possible that the deleterious effects of dielectric absorption (time smearing), capacitance/inductance/resistance and RF/EMI on the signal moving through our speaker cables would be inconsequential.
Dave |
Contrary to popular opinion (apparently), not many audio buyers mindlessly throw money at cables that don't provide audible benefits in their system, according to their personal tastes and preferences. It is a crowded market and suspiciously regarded by many, so the market itself sorts out (over time) those that do not provide improved sound quality on a consistent basis.
Dave |
If you think that more expensive cables don’t represent a good value, then don’t buy them! Why the crusader-like fervor ridiculing the choices of others that feel and act differently regarding how they choose to participate in this HOBBY?
Some of these posts fall only slightly short of suggesting that the sale of hi-end cables should be outlawed. Really? Why? On what basis? C’mon folks, that is a complete loss of perspective.
How do others’ buying decisions affect you? Are they buying these cables with government subsidies paid for by your taxes? Are they stealing from you to pay for them? Are these expensive cables polluting the environment compared to cheaper ones? Are your children being exposed to life-threatening addictions by hi-end cable manufacturers? Are your constitutional rights being violated by manufacturers and buyers of expensive cables? Are your lives or way-of-life being threatened by the hi-end cable marketplace? Do expensive cables kill you? Can they readily be used to kill you?
Please step back from this thread, take a deep breath, and think this over for a while.
Dave |
Yeah, I read it all.
"The psyco-placebo effect personified.".
My point exactly. Based on his opening, the author was intent on proving there are no differences, thus he proclaimed to hear none.
Do you think that your trite and worn out contentions, repeated ad-nauseam, are helpful to anyone, dynaquest?
Dave
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And it starts:
"Most of you know I’m not a believer in the sonic enhancements attributed to fancy, expensive cables."
Then it ends:
"If there is an “unbelievable” change, someone is juicing the results."
I love objective reporting.
Dave
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"I won’t dismiss it out of hand until I experiment myself."
That statement right there negates all of the speculative bluster throughout this thread. Well said, Todd.
Dave
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"manufactures don't have a box of capacitors and another box of audio cables in the factory and start the day by saying "mmmm, let me see if this sounds nice" - everything is built to specifications using components that have a range of tolerances."
Exactly why it is up to the customer to experiment.
Dave
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I’m sure that we all will sleep better knowing that you are protecting us from psych-effects, dynaquest.
Dave
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"Who do you think I’m going to put credibility in?"
Your narcisism prevents you from understanding that neither I, nor anyone else, cares with whom you place credibility.
My challenge is limited to your continuous diatribe that other people cannot possibly hear what they report to hear, thus it can only be expectation bias, an argument that lacks both reason and credibility. I encourage them to listen for themselves and decide.
Dave |
Once again dynaquest, you missed the point. It is not important whether or how anyone regards your, my, or anyone else's point of view. It is important that they listen for themselves and decide for themselves.
Dave |
Most folks I know listen with their ears. lol
pops is right. Past time to move on. Sorry pops.
Dave |
benjie and eniac,
Don't confuse the issue with rational, logic, or actual experience. You cannot overcome the "My opinion continues..." argument. It's impenetrable as is the gray matter of its author.
Dave |
True science begins with the observation of a phenomenon or phenomena and the desire to explain it, not with the preconception that it is impossible and the desire to rationalize denial.
Dave |
...and then the dark cloud of gloom descends...
Dave |
Wasting valuable energy, ctsooner. You know, I know, everyone who has experience with high resolution audio equipment knows that cables have a big impact on sound quality.
I am currently reading a biography of Mike Huckabee. The author actually writes about Paul Klipsch (he built the Klipsch factory in Huckabee's home town after WWII) very favorably and intelligently. As he states, Klipsch was a genius and could have easily pursued almost any endeavor, but chose audio.
The author also quotes Theodore Roosevelt: "It is not the critic that counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."
George Carlin once said, "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." Nuff said.
Dave
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Whatever do you mean? It was a generalization re: the futility of arguing an obvious point.
The image of a quacking duck just entered my mind. Don’t know why.
Dave
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Hi Bruce. Welcome to Audiogon!
Kudos for your attitude. No one can doubt your intelligence and cognitive skills after reading that post.
However, there are three "tells" in your post. "hi-end audio vs technology", "psychological", "double-blind test". These words are the sword and shield of the ardent deniers OF THE POSSIBILITY for different technologies, design choices, materials, and quality construction of cables to actually audibly affect sound quality.
That’s fine as long as it does not become a blindfold (pun intended) to trying such products with an open mind and making your own informed decision before allowing natural and healthy skepticism (re: seemingly price-disproportionate products that, unfortunately, often espouse unrealistic claims of scale and impact) rob you of the opportunity to actually try and then decide through experience. With the 30day+ unconditional money back guarantees from cable manufacturers these days, there is simply no reason to be satisfied with driving from the back seat in the dark.
If you find after earnestly completing the above steps that better cables do not provide sufficient value for your situation, then Godspeed to you my friend.
Again, welcome to Audiogon and thanks for your post. :)
Dave |
