Who says cables don't make a difference?


Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". 
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables. 
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
mglik
I'm not following you, is the Indra a game changing product or a second rate piece of junk? 
I only use the Indra case as an example I have experienced. As much as Indra was precedent setting then for $6K now eclipsed by Sakra at $12K.
Second rate? It still is my best IC. Maybe someday I can afford a Sakra.
It’s very simple, most folks don’t have 6K for cables. So where does that leave the the 12K pair...

If I could, would I? I’m thinking!!!! I don’t think so.

I think it’s great you enjoy it though...
BUT, I’m not one of the cable envy guys, either.

Chevys, Fords, Mercedes. Remember the Porsche/TT/Reel to Reel, thread.  All different, but you really can’t talk someone into another brand, when they are a real lover.... Suppose it’s the same, with cables..

Regards
Not only most folks, not even most systems at CES use $6k interconnects! Let alone $12k! I would wager its way less than 10%, maybe even less than 5%. Heck it may even be less than 1%! The typical room at CES I would wager is running interconnects that retail for under $2500.

So to be using this random walking around story to show how excellent these are, its like some guy saying his DIY sounds better than the freebie patch cord that came in the box. Sorry, but its that silly.

What you ought to have said is he took his $6k interconnects into rooms with $10k Synergistic, $15k Nordost, and $20k Binford Bombast. Or whatever. Anything but some random CES rooms. With room runners. Haven’t been to CES in a while. Now they have runners. Like at Wimbledon? Good one.
I've heard differences in cables, but it is rare that I hear differences worth the asking price.


MC, you mean they run the cables, from display, to display?

That would be pretty cool. It’s not that I wouldn’t spend good money on good cables. It’s more like the cables I run on the gear I use, work, pretty darn good. I’m a couple months out on PAINT, and another month until we get to removing and recovering the flooring, in one of the rooms here.

Covid 19, my new heart stents, the old body is slowing down..LOL
Yup Monday had a damn heart attack behind a blood clot. That from a
nasty bruise, on my inner thy. I wasn’t on thinners...Opps! That hurt...
Boiling oil, comes to mind....

Cables are no less or more important, than every other component. I just choose to hold off, until the rooms (two) are a whole lot closer..

I think, the final touches should be cables, and if I’m paying attention to the gear and the sound coming from the rooms as the project progresses.. That’s when I might take a leap.. The issue for me, is there are VERY few people I can compare my gear to...4 pairs maybe in the US..of the Elixirs, and not one close to the modded up units, I have...

It’s a very different, type of speaker. A hybrid linesourse, no super fancy cable required, they never have.
Solid silver, Good copper, tough to beat. Add anything newer, either boils my ears...or kills them.

I been using a tuning box on my cables..works great.. OXO,
has a turret board I can tune the heck out of the cables in the runs.

I’d like to go through a few cables and really check out the newer stuff.. One thing at a time.

But 6K, the ol Doctor would have to bring some pretty urgent news, like
you got 6 months to live, and dying wont cost TOO much.
If I had a year, I’d be holding off, 6 months. Then bury me with them. ;-)

Regards..
@erik_squires +1! 

Of COURSE cables make a difference, always did - the question is HOW MUCH?!? 
$6000? - $12000??
Even when occupying the right income group, is seriously beyond my comprehension.
Even if they'd be made of solid Au - and assembled by Aeolian virgins, in a higher earthly orbit 💫 - or some such. 🤑

Your explanation really sounds jolly much off the wall. Seriously. 

Best be holding my tongue now... 🤫
Michélle 🇿🇦 

Cables "assembled by Aeolian virgins"?              If I'm paying big money, I want cables made by someone with much experience!!
Morrow A3 interconnect for example are good and makes a difference for the price for me....

But like just say someone else here, cables rarely makes the difference their big price sometimes promise....

I dont know why this subject is not only controversial but all around all time....

Embedding rightly an audio system exceed even most of the times the impact of upgrading the speakers or the dac or the amplifier and sometimes exceed even the changes of these three E.C. ... I am an old rambler but it seems almost nobody knows that in my experience here, then they argue endlessly about cables.... :)



« A new cable make a big difference between my wife and me» -Groucho Marx
“I dont know why this subject is not only controversial but all around all time....”

Because there are so many pseudo claims in the name of science behind a simple copper or silver wire to transform your audio system.
Hi,
they do,
do they justify the astronomic costs required?
Cables and cartridges are more difficult to do unless you have the gear to prove it, then, you pay you get, simple.

My OP was not intended to sell anyone one on Stealth cables. Although I cannot hide my prejudice toward them. My goal was to give an example IME of the value of cables. Does it not go without saying that Serguei and I limited our trial rooms to the very high end ones with ICs that retail for close to or much more than $6k?Research and development of cables is the same as any component and, perhaps, even more so. It is not the case that a solid 24 carat gold cable transfers of signal best. Cables like top line Stealth take years to develop and have extremely sophisticated architecture.
Would  I pay $6k for a cable or any component, no. AG clearly changed the Audio industry. However, there is a significant slice of the market that does buy retail and will pay top dollar. Regarding “room runners”, I use this term IME doing two California Audio Shows. “Running a room” is the person primarily responsible for speaking and selling in that room. 
lalitk
“I dont know why this subject is not only controversial but all around all time....”

Because there are so many pseudo claims in the name of science behind a simple copper or silver wire to transform your audio system.

>>>>>Whoa, dude! Pseudo claims in the name of science? I doubt it. Name one. Betcha can’t. You statement is what we call a pseudo argument, a logical fallacy. As if claiming the other side is unscientific or lying is sufficient to win the debate.🙄

You read my mind and saved me the typing :-)
djones512,346 posts06-28-2020 7:47pmI'm not following you, is the Indra a game changing product or a second rate piece of junk?

mglik,

What specific rooms did you go into and do you have some testimonies to back up your claim? What listening tests did they use to validate? You can walk into rooms in shows and out of phase speakers, they usually sound like crap due to abysmal acoustics which no cable will ever fix. Upgrading the sound in a CES room is like painting a turd.
The correct cables will make your system sing.Spend as much as you can afford the right cable is always a significant upgrade.
My entire room and gear cost???? Under 12K

Here was my total, with cables, C22, a pair of MC240s, two hand made TT, and about 1500.00 in some Strathearn / GB / Misco speakers...
6200.00 in permit, concrete, materials and I did most of the building..

6200.00  (1986) The room 16 x 20 x 8
5100.00  (1976) My gear..

Total under 12K.. What would it cost today?

6 to12K for cables alone??? Holy cow, in my little world, that kind $$$$ built the whole sha-bang...

If I did now, 35-40K and no speakers...another 5-7k if I build them.
30,000.00 for 4 hardwood, MDF rubber lined cabinets. Good cabinet guy.
Not speaker guy... and 4,000.00 for all the drivers and XO stuff.

Little under 80K, still no cables... LOL

Now time to go feed the chickens... Goat ate my hat, while I was gone...
That was my fave..... That was my dancin’ hat...

McOlay! Come on dog.... Dogs Irish, like me....

Where’s my bagpipes...

Regards...
Post removed 
Is there a difference, sure there is. But as with most equipment, the amount of improve is incremental as price goes up. I do believe that the cable industry ( and their associated gear) is the highest profit item in audio land are they too much, yes they are. But if you have the money, like what you hear, and can afford it, why should anyone else care two squats worth. It’s like you’re a bad personality, and an idiot because you can afford it. They talk science, and prove, yet when something is proven, they move onto another point, not willing to concede the point on the proven one. And who are they to tell you that what you hear is a hallucination. Why are they so resistant to your personal happiness? It almost seems as if they are trying to justify not spending on yet another piece of equipment. I’ve seven seen some who demean cables between equipment, yet extoll the use of high end end bran wiring used inside a piece of equipment. Hypocrisy at its best. I guess since we cannot prove love through science, it dosnt not exist. How do you prove with science, how a piece of music moves someone’s emotions. It’s simple. Observation. Unless the human race Islas been prone to lying about the subjects for thousand of years, then I’d be willing to believe when someone hears a difference in cables. 
Normally, I give um, first time having one, live and learn... ;-)

Keep on livin’ sure make it easier to keep on learning. LOL.

Last...Me and that dog been having a great ol time. The hat eatin’ goat though... Were gonna have to have a talk...

Really I do feel good, better than I have in a while... Modern meds are a wonderful thing... Truely, must be made of gold though....

I’m frugal.. not cheap, but man oh man...LOL. I was gonna see if the pharmacist would do a rock, paper, scissor, for a double of nothing... I don’t gamble.. LOL

Thanks though,

Upgrading the sound in a CES room is like painting a turd.
  
Hee Hee, Man oh man do I agree with that one...
It always amazed me... They are trying to sell something, I think???
Then go out of their way to say how it would sound for you?
But it sounds bad there, Huh!!! duno...

Regards...
speedbump6,

What I find laughable is the extolling that every successive generation of more expensive cable is so much better than the last generation, when they can't even quantify, at any level, what the last generation did so well to make it "great". Knowing that every amplifier, every pre-amp, every speaker has a different input and output transfer function, it's a given that the ideal cable (if there is one), will be different all the time, and the newest, latest, greatest is unlikely to be any more optimum than the last one.

If you don't know what you actually did well in the last generation, since you can't actually quantify, or even really communicate other than hand-waving, what you are doing well now, how do you know you did better on the next generation and you didn't screw up everything else.  I know the usual "we tested it with our ears" will be thrown out, but unless you're testing thousands of combinations of equipment  (and some of these companies have barely a multi-meter, let alone racks and racks of components to mix and match, how do they know other than in their one or two reference systems it will help other systems, again given they don't even seem to know how they work?
Post removed 
I’m afraid I’m going to have to recuse myself from this thread, as fun as it’s been. I don’t use cables any more, or power cords, they all introduce distortion and noise. Even the best ones, so I hopped off the AC train and went all battery power. If thy eye offend thee cut it out. No more pencils no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks. 😡
Power Cords too!
Last night I decided to replace a $800 PC connecting my Core Power 1800 PLC to a 20 amp dedicated line with a Wire World Electra 7, a mere $240 MSRP. That one change brought more out of my Emerald Physics KCIIs than I ever could have hoped for
I would say if you are running $800 power cords with $2500 speakers, that may be a bigger issue than quality of the power cord.
@geoffkait 
I don’t use cables any more
So, the signal from your Walkman to headphones is via Bluetooth?
You’re close. It’s by ESP.
Ah....next-gen teleportation technology...
I knew you were going to say that!  😳
Silver clad copper PTFE x 3 and 1 pure copper multi strand. Weave and add red copper ends..Shield armor. 40.00 usd.. 5-900.00 retail. Seen a few over 2,000.00. pretty covers, though...

#16-12 for anything other than power amps
#8-12 for power amps

Sorry PC can only do so much...AC clean up goes a lot further than 250-900 PC...BUT hay... just money... poorly spent but it's just money..

Crack me up...

Regards...
Wire can only subtract information (not that all do) from the signal it’s conducting. Since wire is not active, only passive, it cannot add anything. Who would want a cable that attenuates portions of the audio spectrum that they are trying to conduct from one component to another? That means that if you hear a difference between two interconnects it’s because the two cables in question are attenuating different parts of the audio spectrum! That means that neither are neutral, so, it really means that you pays your money, and you takes your choice of what losses or amount of loss that YOU think sounds better than a low loss solution. That’s why I don’t pay any attention (or money) to cables.
Just for grins I did a quick count on the number of ICs' I'm running in my rather odd stack o' stuff....

...'bout 30 paired cables, plus a couple of 'singles'...lengths from half to two meters.....plus some XLR>RCA m&fm (both ways), 'puter lines, enough AC cables to jump start the monster sans lightning....

And I haven't even mentioned speaker cables....and won't.

30 x 6K$ would buy most of a decent house....the Lotus I'd like to own, with a Yamaha sport bike on a trailer behind it....

The bulk of the cables are from the same vendor, as is the speaker lines.
All of it together didn't run 6K$....and None of it 'came with the items'...

Nor is it trash.  "Reasonable quality at a justifiable price".

True, I can't hear the 1st violinist breathing heavy in the throes of his/her performance efforts....but I think I'd just find that distracting....;)
OK, now I remember why I jumped off the AC power grid! Every time you can reduce the number of cables and power cords you reduce the noise and distortion. By inspection 👀 the best situation would be zero cables and zero power cords, no? But no offense to anyone, everyone has to be somewhere. I can certainly understand why very high resolution and no noise might be distracting to some. 😲
I think why @geoffkait jumped off the grid was all he had left to listen to was a broken record.
A couple days ago I decided to unplug my EVS 1200 class D power amp from my 20 amp dedicated line and plug it into my Core Power 1800 PLC. BIG improvement in openness , speed and depth.


I had been using a now ~ 10 year old boutique power cord ($800), but decided to replace it with my last Wire World Electra 7 ($240); both the amp and Oppo 105 already had them. Instantly the speed and incisiveness I prefer was here IN SPADES: finally, kick drums now have proper thwack, sounding quite correct, as does the rest of the music.

hth
Post removed 
Robberrttddidd, snappy retort as usual. Do you write those yourself or does your mommy help you? No worries, you’re still my favorite pseudo scientist. 💕
I'm intrigued by this debate.  I've listened to high-end cables at local audio events, and the music always sounds good.  There's always one fellow in the audience, however, who points out that the recording studios are using microphone cables and guitar cables that cost less than $200.  So far as I can tell online, he's right!  Mogami claims to be the high-end choice in most recording studios.

"Virtually every major recording facility is wired with Mogami, which means that just about any music you listen to has passed through Mogami somewhere in the recording chain—from Fleetwood Mac to Foo Fighters, from Prince to Pearl Jam, and countless others. "  

Their cables are not very expensive compared to the ICs discussed here.  Nothing over $200, even for the guitar cable used by Slash.
That’s an illogical argument re the studio cables. With home systems or at shows we’re only worried about the playback system. It’s too late (obviously) to address what was already recorded. You do the best you can with what you have. You play the hand you’re dealt, whatever. If the studios had used higher end cables than Mogami doesn’t it make sense the recording would have been better to begin with? Not all studios use the same equipment or cables, some use really high end cables and microphones, others not so much. No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more IF you had started out with more.
You mean you listened to a high end system that just happened to have expensive cables.

stroud276125 posts07-01-2020 3:43pmI'm intrigued by this debate. I've listened to high-end cables at local audio events, and the music always sounds good.

re: Studio cables- Typically; each of those cables is carrying only one voice per, be it vocal or- an instrument, with that one voice’s limited bandwidth, to the mixing console.      There may be a snake in there, also.         On the other hand; our interconnects are responsible for an entire ensemble of voices, plus the hall ambiance info (if live and well recorded, obviously), covering the entire audio frequency spectrum, hopefully: faithfully.
Now do a live microphone for an orchestra. Let's ignore that signal transfer doesn't work that way ....
Of course cables make a difference. If some people can't hear it they should be grateful to be able to put the money towards something else. All cables make a difference including digital cables. Sometimes it really is trivial, Sometimes dramatic. There's no need to go broke but a little upgrade can go a long way.

georgemgraves
3 posts06-30-2020 6:46pm

Wire (cable) can only subtract information (not that all do) from the signal it’s conducting. Since wire is not active, only passive.
That’s why I don’t pay any attention (or money) to cables.


What do you use then? You know, to conduct your signal?

10 -17" Baton, maestro? How is it getting there, wireless?

You say better?

Ok... I’m here to learn...

Regards
mitch2,

"You’re close. It’s by ESP."
Surprisingly, but geoffkait is not making this one up. Many SONY Discmen, later also branded as CD Walkmen and including geoffkait's, have ESP.

Like, for example, this one...

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/sony_discman_esp_sports_d_421sp.html

I think it’s all relative to the quality of your audio equipment to the cost and architecture as well as metal type used to construct your cable. There is of course a point where it is more jewelry than audio improvement. For now my new Morrow Audio MA-3’s RCA IC’s will improve my original NAD T758 and NAD 514 CD player and help with my middle of the road technics turntable. I already can hear a difference.

There are those that just won’t believe and spend as little on wire as they can, and have a 3000 integrated amp and change out speakers because they just don’t sound right.

I will continue the cable upgrade-my power cord though I won’t spend over 175.00 as my receiver that is still being sold by NAD only with upgraded modules, is only a 1400.00 AVR and new speaker and subwoofer cable. I will replace my hdmi but only up to 20,00 more until I upgrade to an oled. 
I still can’t wrap my head around cables that cost over a few hundred follars to be honest let alone over a thousand dollars.. but if this is your passion and music nirvana is what you hope to achieve and you have the means, why the hell not. Is that not what money is for in the end? 







@glupson so the Sony Discman ESP is probably well-suited for Geoff. Electronic Shock Protection. Probably meant for underwater use, or when spelunking, or when listening outdoors in a thunderstorm. I suspect Geoff is all about "Safety First."
Cables as important as any component in my system.  I'm building a SYSTEM.  Like wasting a Ferrari using cheap tires.
From my experience more expensive doesn't guarantee best SQ and takes WORK and trial / error  to find the right ones.   With that said, best cables in my system are CRAZY expensive but worth every penny!