Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
It's a " honor " for the real MM alternative that with you is surrounded for that great analog rig! and it works!
As I said it's an alternative that as the LOMC alternative has its own trade-offs.
Maybe the today vintage MM/MI hunting is not for USD200 but who knows because there are still several great samples over the net, even some better cartridges/performers that your Garrot that's very good one.
Thank you. It's been a real privilege to follow this and your numerous other posts. As a Decca-phile, I am very happy to forsake LOMCs for much of my record playing. My Decca FFSS MkIV C4E has been rebuilt by John Wright and has a fine line tip. Just stunning in my voltage 70s Hadcock and TRON Seven Reference phono built specially to suit my 1960s Decca. I would love to have think about a vintage Grace or AKG, but my attentions are now firmly fixed on 15 IPS R2R. I now have 4 x 15IPS capable machines (2 x Sony APR5000 series, a Studer A807/II and a High Speed Revox G36). Purchasing decent tape (e.g. Tape Project releases, old record company distribution masters or old radio distribution tapes) is not cheap :)
Dear @topoxforddoc : R2R?, almost everything starts there. Perhaps a trade-off with is that there is not enough software and the tapes we can find are expensive but there is no doubt that the R2R experience is worth to try it and with excelent rewards.
Dear all, there is one missing MM cartridge in this thread is worth to try:
My STANTON CS100 W.O.S. has arrived not so long ago. I really like the character of this rare cartridge! Mounted on Luxman TA-1 tonearm on Luxman PD-444 turntable (with Saec SS-300 mat and Noritake NC-02 ceramic stabilizer). This CS100 W.O.S. model has sapphire-coated cantilever and stereohedron tip. I have never expected Stanton can be so good. The first ever cartridge i’ve bought myself 21 years ago was Stanton AL500mk2. This rare CS100 WOS is my 4th Stanton cartridge and probably the best of them. I have low output Stanton 980LZS (that i use with Zyx CPP-1 headamp), but CS100 on Luxman TA-1 arm impressed me more than 980LZS on Reed 3p arm and Sp10mk2 deck. I’m gonna try them on one arm soon. Another one awaiting my audition is Stanton 881 mk2 which is rated (for some reason) as high as the Audio Technica AT-ML170 in TAS review here. Not sure about AT-ML170 (i haven’t tried yet), but AT-ML180 is my referense MM now. While i always loved vintage Japanese cartridges, Stanton CS-100 W.O.S. is the first US made MM cartridge that sounds so involved to my ears.
P.S. and since i have a spare replacement stylus (with boroken cantilever) i'm thinking about retip at Expert Stylus with their Paratrace tip. Has anyone tried their service? Cost 162 UK pounds in total.
Interesting post. The CS 100 has the lowest inductance of the Stanton HOMMs. Is the D81/91 stylus interchangeable with the CS100 ?
Concerning the LZ, do you have a phono preamp with high gain and selectable resistance? The 980LZ has a treble droop which seems to be noticeably improved when loaded between 1 - 2Kohms. Both David Dlaloum and R Flood (asylum) have measured a significant improvement. I think the ZYX head amp is fixed at 100 ohms ?
Not long age there was a thread on Karma about Expert re-tipping some Stanton carts. Seems that two different carts wound up with different length cantilevers, both of which were wrong. Perhaps you should consider Axel or Soundsmith.
Dear @chakster : """
CS100 on Luxman TA-1 arm impressed me more than 980LZS on Reed 3p arm and Sp10mk2 deck.. """"
there you are comparing oranges vs apples: two different tonearms with different internal wiring, two different TTs and two cartridges with way different output and different needs because of this.
Try to find out the 981 HZ ( that I own ) and maybe your " take " could be different too.
Regarding the 170 and as you own the 180 you know that both cartridges belongs to the AT ML/OCC series from the 140 to 180 . This AT cartridge series comes from 1985 and started with the 170 at the early months of that years where the 180 is a real refinnement over the 170 where its " major " differences are that the 180: has lower inductance, more extended high frequency response, smaller ML stylus radio 0.08 m/m against 0.1 for the 170, stylus angle for the 180 is 23° against 20° and 7.5 grs. in the 180 vs 7.00 in the other series models and yes you can hear its differences but not easy to detect it.
Interesting post. The CS 100 has the lowest inductance of the Stanton HOMMs. Is the D81/91 stylus interchangeable with the CS100 ?
Hi Fleib, I think they are, but i haven’t tried to change the stili, i’m gonna try soon.
Concerning the LZ, do you have a phono preamp with high gain and selectable resistance? The 980LZ has a treble droop which seems to be noticeably improved when loaded between 1 - 2Kohms. Both David Dlaloum and R Flood (asylum) have measured a significant improvement. I think the ZYX head amp is fixed at 100 ohms ?
Zyx CPP-1 pre-pre amp has 26db step-up ratio to work with very low output MC cartridges. Enough gain to work with my WLM Phono stage then. Zyx claimed their own resistors can transfer the output signal with noise and no inductance at all. Resistom made of pure copper wire (same as their mc coil wire) cryogenically purified. Nice device actually, i can’t change anything.
Not long age there was a thread on Karma about Expert re-tipping some Stanton carts. Seems that two different carts wound up with different length cantilevers, both of which were wrong. Perhaps you should consider Axel or Soundsmith. Regards.
Thanks for letting me know. Axel is the easiest for me. There is also Garrott retipping btw. I thought Expect Stylus specialized in Stantons.
@rauliruegas there you are comparing oranges vs apples: two different tonearms with different internal wiring, two different TTs and two cartridges with way different output and different needs because of this.
Yes, but even on cheaper Luxman TA-1 arm with old original internal wire this SC100 impressed me more. I will put 980LZS on the same arm soon to check.
Regarding the 170 and as you own the 180 you know that both cartridges belongs to the AT ML/OCC series from the 140 to 180 . This AT cartridge series comes from 1985 and started with the 170 at the early months of that years where the 180 is a real refinnement over the 170 where its " major " differences are that the 180: has lower inductance, more extended high frequency response, smaller ML stylus radio 0.08 m/m against 0.1 for the 170, stylus angle for the 180 is 23° against 20° and 7.5 grs. in the 180 vs 7.00 in the other series models and yes you can hear its differences but not easy to detect it.
Yes, AL-ML180/OCC is amazing, i like it very much on Reed 3p tonearm. Now i can sell my AT-ML150/OCC replaced by AT-ML180/OCC last month. The difference between 150 and 180 is big, but the price difference is also very big.
However, TAS reviewer said this: "What cartridge could have the lowest distortion of all, uncanny resolution, better than master tapes? The answer is: The Stanton 881MkII. The scene shifts. Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using? Another moving magnet, this time the Technics EPC-100Mk4. But he describes the Audio Technica AT-ML170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent colorations."
@fleib well, original D98S stylus from 980LZS cartridge on Stanton CS100 WOS does not make and improvement. It's detailed and so ... But output with this stylus is much lower and the sound is not so rich and full-bodied as with the original sapphire-coated CS100 stylus on the same WOS signature cartridge body. in this combination on Luxman TA-1 arm i prefer CS100 for it's magic.
Yeah, it's definitely a mismatch then, thanks for the link. Luckily i have another spare never opened NOS original sealed CS100 stylus, no need for pickering styli.
Dear all, while the low impedance STANTON 980 LZS on my Luxman TA-1 arm with ZYX CPP-1 pre-preamp sounds great, i prefer SC100 WOS for the ease of use with mm phono stage. Since i have NOS spare styli for CS100 and they are not compatible with 980LZS series, i will stick to CS100 cartridge in the future. That means i'm selling my minty STANTON 980 LZS (nice review from feb.,1982 attached in my listing).
I stumbled on this huge thread today while searching for a good candidate for my next cartridge. I am humbled by the expertise and knowledge of the group! I tried to plow through as many of the old posts as I could, but that is a daunting task.
My question is what to do TODAY, 2016, that is reasonable for the average new audioaddict.
My situation is This: I have a Linn Basik with Basik LVX arm (had an AudioQuest PT6 n my hands and let it get away too cheap. Damn!) into a Nakamichi Receiver 2, (47 kohms Imp, unknown capacitance) mounted in such a way that playing with loading would be a major PIA.
A n Oracle Alexandria with Sumiko premier MMT arm into a Rotel RX-1052 - same imp/cap situation, but I am using an Emotiva XPS-1 which lets me play with loading my MC only.
I have a surprisingly good Schiit Mani sitting around; but it's loading options are limited to gain and 47/47k Oms. I am interested in the DB Systems DB-6, which lets one play with capacitance loading - I have a few Shure cartridges.
I am looking for an alternative to my Shure V15 RS with SAS. I like to roll cartridges and styli. This would probably be for the Linn unless it is so wonderful I have to move it to my A system.
WHAT ARE SOME GOOD MODERN MM CARTRIDGES? Can I experiment with capacitance settings with the Alex/Rotel, which has better accessibility, and expect them to translate to the Linn? My spare Linn headshell is an AT-CF3. Carbon fiber? All my in-use headshells for the Alex are metal alloy, but I have a spare that looks to be stainless steel. Obviously, the headshells are not compatible between the arms.
Learned gentlemen and ladies, what is your advice? Trying to keep it under $500. I am leery of vintage cartridges that may have corrosion or dried-out rubber inside. (Fear for my Shures!)
Dear @2channel8: That's by design. Normally the load impedance comes at the PS input circuit and is here where we can change the it but you will need manufacturer advise to do it. You can do it too in external way but not convenient. The best is to ask the manufacturer of your PS how to do it and where to do it in that circuit board where usually needs to change a resistor value.
@chakster , not only Grace cartridges shows a benefit loading it 100 kohms but several of your cartridges. That a PS permits loading changes with MM cartridges is a must in its design.
Of course i have seen many post here about benefits of 100k Ohms loading instead of 47k Ohms (for most MMs discovered here), but seems like only a few manufacturers, like Shinagawa Musen Corporation (Grace), recommended 100k Ohms from the start (which stated in the manual). They were smarter than others 40 years ago?
Since i've never tried 100k ohm loading for any MMs in my system, i wonder what's the difference for example with Grace loaded at standard 47k ohms or at 100k ohms?
Dear @chakster : """
They were smarter than others 40 years ago? """
not really, on those times appeared the four channels recordings or similar " news " that were recorded with wider high frequency range and that's why those cartridges was loaded at 100kohms.
"""
what's the difference for example with Grace loaded at standard 47k ohms or at 100k ohms? """
it depends on the phono satge and the capacitance we mated it.
MM cartridges " reacts " according how we loaded ( impedance/capacitance. ). There are diferent experiences, some persons like to load at 60k-70k and I read that some cartridge models performs better at 20-30K. So there are not a precise rules down there. You have to test it in your own system, in my system I prefer ( almost all the time. ) 100K but maybe in yours could be diferent.
As much as this seems to be an underground reference to a vault recording of the Grateful Dead it is not!
Any help here would be appreciated. Really enjoying this MM. Supex MM SM-100 with the SMM 25 E (Eliptical) stylus just seems to be plum incompatible with my SOTA Clamp. At runout if I'm not right on the cue the cartridge bounds back into the deadwax runout and wt? repeat! Perhaps a recommendation on a different clamp? The SOTA Clamp is about 1/4" from the outside of the paper label.
Hello everyone, One way to have a cheap fhono entry charged to 100ohm is to the Panasonic SE-405 decoder. It provides decode CD-4 disks and also supports Stain Gauge cartridges. Its price on Ebay is usually below 200$. Regards from Spain.
and when arrived I thought that the up-grade will be on the high frequency range, right? well I was wrong because the improvement was astonishing ( for say the least. ) all over the frequency range and all over the main characteristics of quality level performance in my audio system:
not only better transparency, " better " more equilibrated system tone, dynamics and power in the MUSIC as I never heard it in an audio system, transients response very close to what we experienced with live music, the brightness in some recordings goes lower and in some disappeared, at each single place in the diferent frequency ranges precision was up graded, low bass range more tunneful/precise and tight ( don't ask: I don't know for sure the whys. ), rythm of MUSIC closer to the live MUSIC experiences, etc, etc.
It does not matters your system I think that everyone must have SperTweeters integrated ( other thanh the systems already has it. ) and we can't die with out listen our system with.
Questions and comments are welcomed as other gentlemans experiences.
Not reading every post in this looooooooooooong thread I find it oddly coincidental that I recently decided synergy between arm and cartridge might just be the holy grail in analogue.
With this thought in mind ( partially prompted by the destruction of my Grado Platinum by the Maidinator ) I decided to hunt down a Grace F-8C to mount on my Grace G707 / Kenwood KD500 combo. After losing one in an auction on eBay I found an F8-L10' with a buy it now so I bit the bullet.
The cartridge was advertised as lightly used, but upon inspection I quickly realized it was actually NOS, needless to say this made me quite happy.
After the Maidinator destroyed my Grado Platinum I installed my Grado 8MZ. A decent enough cart / stylus combo but just not the magic I had with the wood body cart on the Grace arm.
I struggled with this dilemma for a time, wondering if I should just purchase another Platinum and be done with it. But while procrastinating in the purchase I ran across the Grace carts, and this was the impetus for my search.
Well, it's like night and day. What I thought was magical between the Platinum and Grace arm was just a taste of what the arm was capable of. It was one of those moments when you realize you're laughing at just how eye opening the experience is.
I won't get into all the audiophile superlatives, just suffice it to say synergy is the key when talking about cart arm combos more than between any other pieces of gear, in my opinion anyway.
Is it really that complicated if one has basic soldering ability? The preamps/phono stages I’m familiar with have a standard 47K loading resistor on each phono input, typically on the back side of the RCA connectors. When that is the case, that can simply be replaced by a quality 100K resistor (for each channel). Then, depending on the design, one can parallel resistors to lower that to 47K or other desired values when called for, just as you would lower the standard loading to a lower value.
I don't know much about electronics but don't believe you can increase the loading value, only decrease it.
@nandric how would you rate that Azzurra MF cartridge made by Mitachi Corp (Glanz) in 1983 for Giancarlo Bonetti's distribution in Italy? What is the equivalent of Azzurra in Glans/Astatic production line? You said you need 10 days, but it took 3 years, hope you can comment now.
We needed some time to discovere that Astatic and Glanz are made by Mitachi corp. and so is the 'Azzurra' which was ordered by Glanz.
TheAzzurrahas the same 'generator' as the Glanz 31(l) which is 'the same' as the Astatic MF 200...
I will need about 10 days to test the cart. Then I hope to know if this cart has any merit or ,at least, if it has the same 'generator' as the mentioned 71,51 or 31 models.
When Raul said he's selling entire collection of cartridges i remeber this funny scene: https://youtu.be/pKKmzmeU5-0
At least it was a long run, took 8 years, 244 pages full of information, new discoveries, so many followers. And now the main contributors lost their interest in MM cartridges. That's pretty sad.
I think that was the best joke in this thread:
A Boron, a Berylium and a Ruby cantilever walk into a bar. Bartender says "which one of you clowns ordered the nude shibata?" I give up.
Dear @chakster : At least with me your statement is a misunderstood. I still enjoy the MM alternative along the MC one and till today nothing tell me to be sticked again with LOMC cartridges.
The MM alternative is a real and true alternative and for me it's here and forever.
Maybe what we need is to fine tune ( again. ) each one system and re-test the MM cartridges we own and I'm totally sure that more than one of us will be surprised again with this alternative.
In these days since my overall cartridge sale through Agon I tested several MM and LOMC cartridges I did not listen to it for several years and " I'm surprised " for say the least. Even started to listen cartridges that I own and never tested!
Dear all, I wish to put one exceptional MM cartridge in my top list now. This cartridge is Pioneer PC-1000 MK2 (1976). First MM pickup that sounds wonderful on my Thomas Schick "12 tonearm on Lux PD444 turntable. Next to my Stanton CS-100 WOS on TA-10 arm or even better. Those two are so good that i won’t change them. Victor X1II is on the second deck (sp10mk2) on reed 3p. I like that top of the line Pioneer’s presentation. Worth to try if you haven’t heard them in your system. Highly recommended.
I think it's worth $500 and compete with top MM carts people sell for same price, i like it better than some of the MCs. But it is not necessary to pay that much, we all have different sources to search. For half price that would be a bargain, that's for sure. I'm talking about PC-1000 MK2 only, never heard PC-1000 (the previous version).
About 4 months ago I bought a custom tonearm cable that is claimed to have exceptionally low impedance. That is not the reason I bought it, but I noted that it might negatively affect my Shure V15 RS - I usually play a LOMC which has better bass. When I first got the cable I briefly tested it with the Shure - I noticed no change - and went back to the LOMC. Last week i needed to test using a Tonar Tacky Roller and didn't want to risk getting my LOMC all gummed up. Back went the V15 with an old stylus I had on hand. During the testing I noticed more bass from the Shure than I remember.
Back went the Jico SAS stylus and I have been listening to it since then. Where did all this bass come from? Maybe those myths about cable break-in are true! It can't be due to the lower impedance, obviously. Maybe the shorter cable length, better connectors or finer gauge, OFHC, long crystal conductors, or the fancy dielectric. I'm not sure I really care. I am happily surprised.
My next step will be to experiment with capacitance with a DB Systems kit. I'm not going to start soldering resistors in my PS. I'm not that infected with the audio virus, early stages of the disease. ;^) I can order some resistors for the kit and see which make the biggest difference.
Dear @2channel18: """"
Maybe those myths about cable break-in are true! It can't be due to the lower impedance, obviously. Maybe the shorter cable length, better connectors or finer gauge, OFHC, long crystal conductors, or the fancy dielectric. I'm not sure I really care. """"
it can't be due the very low impedance and yes that myth is not a myth, IC cables as almost any audio item needs a break-in time.
Yes too, capacitance can makes differences with that Shure cartridge as loading impedance but as you stated you have to make changes at the input resistors values.
At the end, right now you are satisfied with and this is the main subject, good!
Chakster, Professor Timeltel was a big fan of the Pioneer cartridge's. He found an old body and Halcro located some styli, although I don't remember the exact model. He thought it was great. Memory says it had a Titanium cantilever.
I've just read the last few months' worth of posts. As noted by Fleib, I think, I am one of those who found that my 980LZS sounded best loaded at at least 1000R and above. It sounded really dull at 100R. Do not judge it at that load resistance; I think it's even better at 47K than at 1000R, but not by much. I own both an NOS CS100 and an NOS 881S mk2, but I have never even taken either one out of OEM packaging, so I cannot say much about comparing the CS100 to the 980LZS. Alas, my 980LZS seems to have seen its better days, but I do own a second and NOS one (981LZS, actually) with which I can replace it. Right now, I went back to my Koetsu Urushi, which I had not heard in a few years since Raul put me on to these MM/MI types.
On the subject of loading MM cartridges at 100K, I have been doing that routinely for years. Thus I cannot say that ALL MMs sound better at that load vs 47K, but I am of the opinion that one can always add load capacitance to compensate for load R, up to a point. The only case where I did make a careful comparison was with my Grado TLZ, which definitely sounded best at 100K vs 47K, capacitance being equal and "low" (<150pF) in both cases. I was interested to read here that 100K is recommended for the Grace; I have been lately listening to my Ruby at 47K. Need to try that.
By the way, to obtain a 100K load on your phono stage, you need to understand the input circuit, locate the standard 47K load resistor, de-solder it, and then solder in a high quality 100K resistor to replace it. Because you ain't gonna find a commercial product that comes with 100K loading option. (Except maybe Raul's????)
I don't see how a Shure MM would be bothered much by "low impedance" phono cable. Are you sure you don't mean to say "low capacitance"? Because capacitance of the cable certainly can and does affect any MM. Furthermore, most phono cable makers like to let you know when they have achieved a low capacitance per foot of cable.
@acman3 it was PC-1000, but not PC-1000 MK2 which comes with rare Beryllium cantilever.
Chakster, Professor Timeltel was a big fan of the Pioneer cartridge’s. He found an old body and Halcro located some styli, although I don’t remember the exact model. He thought it was great. Memory says it had a Titanium cantilever.
I own both an NOS CS100 and an NOS 881S mk2, but I have never even taken either one out of OEM packaging, so I cannot say much about comparing the CS100 to the 980LZS.
Now i have all of them: 881S mk2, CS-100 WOS, 980LZS I think CS-100 is the best of all Stanton’s cartridges, i can easily trade or sell now my Stanton 881S mk2 or 980LZS (never experimented with loading) because i prefer CS-100 WOS.
The only case where I did make a careful comparison was with my Grado TLZ, which definitely sounded best at 100K vs 47K, capacitance being equal and "low" (<150pF) in both cases. I was interested to read here that 100K is recommended for the Grace; I have been lately listening to my Ruby at 47K. Need to try that.
How would you rate you Grado TLZ compared to other top MMs? True, need to try my Grace F-9F and F-9U with 100k omhs - that’s was manufacturer recommended in the manual, not 47k.
By the way, to obtain a 100K load on your phono stage, you need to understand the input circuit, locate the standard 47K load resistor, de-solder it, and then solder in a high quality 100K resistor to replace it. Because you ain’t gonna find a commercial product that comes with 100K loading option. (Except maybe Raul’s????)
Maybe i have to start with my Grado PH-1 cheap phono preamps (i have two of them) to try to replace the resistors first. I just don’t want to break my reference WLM Phonata phono stage. Which high quality 100k resistors would you recommend? I really want to try, especially if the Grado carts works better with 100k ohms loading. Thanks Lew!
Chakster, For a load resistor, I would choose the nude Vishay (best and cost the most), then the Audio Note tantalum type, then the Caddock TF020 (which can be purchased from M Percy and cost the least). The differences among them are small, but the nude Vishay is sublime for sure. Sitting here, I cannot recall the part number for the Vishays ("TX2---" is the closest I can come, where the last 3 digits are represented by dashes). Dave Garretson can help with both a part number and a source.
When it was really singing, the TLZ was among the best cartridges I have owned. I still have my original sample, purchased back in the late 70s or early 80s, and it seems to have suffered from the ravages of time in storage, more so than any of these other vintage cartridges we have been going ga-ga over.
While I don't dispute your comparative judgement of the 980LZS vs the CS100, I would urge you not to finalize your opinion unless or until you have auditioned the 980LZS running into at least a 1000R load, or higher in value. Furthermore, I am not sure what you meant above as regards your phono gain options, but by all means don't use a SUT with the 980LZS. If you used a pre-preamp which merely adds an active gain stage in front of the phono corrector, then you need to consider what that added device might be doing to the sound, for good or ill.
Nandric, You need not worry that I am spending too much time soldering. I have one phono stage that I have modified for 100K load on MM cartridges. The other two that are in heavy use are still running 47K. I added a switch for loading my Atma MP1 so that I can choose 47K, 1000R, or 100R. Since I use the MP1 only with very LOMC cartridges, I am never wanting 100K loading on that device. But as I have noted probably too many times, 47K is often my favorite on even those LOMCs, e.g., the Ortofon MC2000 and the Ortofon MC7500.
Furthermore, I am not sure what you meant above as regards your phono gain options, but by all means don't use a SUT with the 980LZS. If you used a pre-preamp which merely adds an active gain stage in front of the phono corrector, then you need to consider what that added device might be doing to the sound, for good or ill.
ZYX CPP-1 pre-preamp is my device for LOMC and Stanton 980LZS. For most of the low output carts like ZYX i like that pre-preamp with my MM stage better than my MC stage with build-in transformers. Not sure is anyone else experienced with ZYX CPP-1 here, anyone? Arthur Salvator said "The ZYX basically equals theBent Silver TX-103transformer" in his big test of reference components, full review here.
Thanks for the info on the ZYX. I was not even aware such a product existed these days. Neither the so-called "review" by Arthur Salvatore, nor the blurb on the Sorasound website say what is the value of the input resistance on the ZYX. If it's set at 100R, you might consider changing that resistor to 1000R, which I admit is a lot of trouble to go to for just one cartridge. But if it IS 100R, then you probably should not judge the 980LZS, especially if your reservations include the fact that it sounds relatively rolled-off and "dark", which is the effect of the 100R load, to my ears, in my system.
The stuff about using copper wire to build the resistor, mentioned by Sorasound, sounds to me like hype. It would take a huge coil to achieve 100 ohms of resistance, if made of copper. But I suppose it's possible.
I went to the ZYX website, finally, to get more information. There they do say that the load R = 100 ohms. But I am confused a bit more, because on the ZYX website they give a spec for accuracy of the RIAA correction, which per se does not make sense unless the CPP-1 is a hi-gain phono stage. I had conceived that it was an external gain stage, adding 26db of gain, according to ZYX. Thus it should contain no RIAA filtering. I guess what they mean by that spec for RIAA is that the CPP itself is linear within the margins noted, so that it will not upset the RIAA correction applied downstream by the phono stage to which the CPP is to be connected.
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