Which transport with my Jay's Audio DAC?


Advice needed.
I currently have a Nuprime CDT 8 feeding a Jay's Audio DAC. The CDT 8 oversamples the  PCM signal incoming to the DAC, and does DSD.
I have followed the discussions of the Jay's Audio CDT2- Mk2 with interest, since it looks to be a transport superior to the Nuprime. However, it does not provide PCM oversampling or DSD; and I think that the Jay's DAC cannot oversample a signal on its own. [Can any DAC?]
The question, then, is which combination is likely to be the better: 1. The Nuprime transport and the Jay's Audio DAC or 2. The Jay's Audio transport and the Jay's Audio DAC? Does the presumed superiority of the Jay's Audio transport more than compensate for the OS-ing capacity of the Nuprime DAC? 
Or perhaps any question of preferring an OS-ing to a NOS-ing transport is simply a matter of taste, and not any sort of objective criterion for making a choice like this?
Any insights will be appreciated.

4cd89561 9834 4bd2 9434 13dd183d0702Ag insider logo xs@2xzimmerma
It’s really hard to answer your questions because what seems good theoretically can be sound awfull on your system. The best advice I can give is to make demo and listen what is best for your ears.
Thank you, itzhak1969, for your comment.

Good advice.....
Getting a Jay's Audio Transport would be hard to get from China for a demo.... I wish that it were possible.
^^^
So how did you demo the Jay's Audio DAC then?
garrard: Did you address this question to itzhak1969?
I have not been able to demo the Jay's transport. I wish that I could.
OP: he’s asking about your DAC. 
Right, celander.

But I already made it clear in the OP that I own a Jay's Audio DAC. I don't need to "demo" one.

My OP was about a possible, yet unrealized, comparison between 1. The OSing Nuprime transport and the Jay's Audio OS-capable DAC or 2. The  NOS Jay's Audio transport and the Jay's Audio DAC in NOS mode?

That question is still outstanding. 
@zimmerma The point I was making was that you bought the Jay's DAC "BLIND", so why are you afraid of buying the Jay's transport "Blind"
The answer to your question, garrard, was the whole burden of my OP:

To get some evidence-based advice from those with experience of the likely difference in overall signal quality between 1. Using an OS transport of probably lesser quality [the Nuprime] with the Jay's Audio OS-capable DAC or 2.  Using an exclusively NOS  transport of probably greater quality [the Jay's Audio transport] with the Jay's Audio DAC in NOS mode.

I like combination 1.
The question is whether combination 2. would provide a substantially better listening experience.
Well, I bought the Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK2 transport without having auditioned it. It’s a great addition, replacing my trusty CAL Delta CD transport. 

I think that the Jay’s Audio companion DAC is matched to the form factor of their transports. I would imagine you can’t go wrong with it. 

I decided to go with an Exogal Comet Plus to replace my Theta DSPro Basic IIIa DAC. 
Srajan (@6moons) ran his Jay's Audio DAC with the Jay's CDT MK 2 and found it best with the Is2 (HDMI) connection. Something to consider.
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/jaysaudio2/

There's a rear shot of the two, connected, on the last page.

All the best,
Nonoise
I am a bit suspicious about the Nuprime CDT approach to oversamples the PCM signal incoming to the DAC and I am not sure if it’s not harm the sound, I prefer the native approach of the Jay Audio CDT2 to transfer the signal as is and let your DAC to do its job without any artificial manipulation of the Nuprime transport.
Agreed. It’s like having two clocks and having to work around one of them. The transport should work along the K.I.S.S. approach and do it’s level best to transport, intact, the signal to the DAC and let it do it’s thing.

All the best,
Nonoise
Interesting suggestion, itzhak1969.
Let me see if I have this right. You prefer the combination of a CD transport with no OS capability whatsoever, which feeds in turn any strictly NOS DAC.
Fine.
Does that mean that your objection is not just to the Nuprime OS capable transport, but to any transport that sends an OS signal to an OS-capable DAC?
Fine,  I guess.... though I am not sure that it answers the question I raised in the OP, which at least leaves open the possibility that OS-ing is not in itself the unmitigated folly that you now suggest.
Every taste is a taste, I suppose 
OS doesn’t meant that it improve the sound .bits are bits what’s matter is the original sampling the music was recorded if in the first place the studio made poor low resolution recording no oversampling DAC/transport in the world will made things better. If I were you I would certainly prefer Jay DAC and Jay transport over Jay DAC and Nuprime transport.
You may be correct, itzhak1969, about the superiority of the the Jay's/Jay's combination over the Nuprime/Jay's. I do wish that someone had actually heard them both, but that is a lot to ask.

As for your general point that "bits are bits," so that OS renders no improvement upon an already adequately recorded 44.1K CD, I hope that you acknowledge that that view is currently the subject of much controversy. Many commentators insist that 2 times OS-ing over a 48K signal yields real sonic improvements.

I do not know what to think.
@zimmerma
The Nuprime OS capability doesn’t make it better than the non OS Jay transport.
The Nuprime is an entry level transport while Jay transport is high end gear without hearing none of them I can certainly guess which is better , well I think you can too...
You may well be correct, itzhak1969.
I’ve auditioned both the NuPrime CDT-8 Pro and Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK2 transports over at least one month periods. The Jay’s Audio transport is far better than the NuPrime transport. 
Excellent, celander,.... at last, someone with direct experience of both transports.

Can you tell me a bit more about the comparison you were able to make?
  • What DAC did you use with them?
  • Did you try many of the OS options [PCM and DSD] when you fed the DAC with the Nuprime?
  • And this is always a hard one: could you characterize the differences you heard in going from one transport to the other and back? ...and characterize the various aspects of the sonic superiority of the Jay's Audio?
I appreciate your taking the time to offer your response to my OP.

Good listening.
Both were fed into my Theta Digital DSPro Basic IIIa DAC as conventional Redbook signal inputs (16-bit/44.1k). I posted my results on Teajay’s thread about the Jay’s Audio transport.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-you-still-spin-cd-s-their-is-a-reference-level-transport-f...

TBH, the NuPrime was not any better than my 20-year old CAL Delta transport on Redbook signal processing via the Theta DAC. The Theta DAC has chameleon-like character, revealing the strengths and weaknesses of the upstream transport. 
So, celander, in your comparison you did not try the OS-capability of the Nuprime transport. Too bad.

Thanks though. 
Most of high end brands do not implement OS capability on their CD transports .in my opinion what Nuprime did is very unusual and totally wrong , I really don’t understand your fixation of the OS capability like it’s something good... well it’s not !
Good CD transport has to do only one thing to transmit the signal as pure as possible and let the DAC to do the rest .
Believe me if Jay Audio would thought that OS capability will do their transport better they certainly put this technology on their transport .The best transport is the one which keep things simple OS capability on dedicated transport is no more than sound manipulation .
Reply to itzhak1969:

Sir, you insist [ as you have done before, and before, and {sigh} before] that... 
"Most of high end brands do not implement OS capability on their CD transports. in my opinion what Nuprime did is very unusual and totally wrong. I really don’t understand your fixation of [sic: "on"] the OS capability like it’s something good... well it’s not !"

Why the vehemence? You make it sound as though I have written  many a brief on behalf of OS transports and DACs. I have not. I am genuinely agnostic on the comparative merits of OS and NOS processing.

I read the relevant literature.... And conclude that, on that comparative question, the jury is still very much out.

I think that you have me completely wrong on this choice of whether or not to buy the Jay's Audio transport.... Given my audiophile upgrade thirst, I am positively yearning [with emphasis!] for an excuse to buy the Jay's Audio transport. However, I still have on hand an unanswered question--- despite all the many useful responses to my OP--- namely, which combination is likely to be better:
1. A putatively superior NOS transport [Jay's Audio] with an OS-capable DAC, but in strictly NOS mode [Jay's Audio], or
2. A putatively inferior OS-capable transport [Nuprime] with an OS-capable DAC, in OS mode [Jay's Audio].

No one, I mean no one, who has responded to the OP, has directly addressed THAT question. [celander has come closest.]

Gentlemen... and possibIe ladies....  I do not need to be continually dunned with any more posts about the obvious superiority of NOS over OS digital processing. I do not yet have a view....

Nor is there a consensus.Please have the grace to acknowledge that.

In the OP, I raised a specific question about any likely differences--- based on experience of the components involved-- between options 1. and 2. just noted.

May I ask that respondents stick to that issue.

I WANT to buy the Jay's Audio DAC.... I have the money here in my pocket. But, I still want to know whether the shift from an OS-capable to a strictly OS-capable transport would be a mistake.

I continue to hope for enlightenment.  
OP: the Theta DAC is a 25-year old Redbook DAC. It only locks onto 44.1k and 48k signals.
Right, celander.... So maybe in conducting the comparison in question, you could have used a more apt DAC.

Ysheesh.
OP wrote in his OP: “The question, then, is which combination is likely to be the better: 1. The Nuprime transport and the Jay's Audio DAC or 2. The Jay's Audio transport and the Jay's Audio DAC? Does the presumed superiority of the Jay's Audio transport more than compensate for the OS-ing capacity of the Nuprime DAC?”

I provided my experience with 3 transports feeding a Theta DAC. The Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK2 was clearly superior in every respect to the CAL Delta and the NuPrime CDT-8 Pro. The NuPrime transport has twice or three times the output clock jitter as the CAL Delta transport. So I’m not surprised the NuPrime transport didn’t do as well as the CAL transport. And yes, I’m talking about the transports’ Redbook signal processing. If a transport can’t excel at Redbook signal processing, then what hope does it have at processing higher sample rates? GIGO. 

OP wrote in OP: “However, it does not provide PCM oversampling or DSD; and I think that the Jay's DAC cannot oversample a signal on its own. [Can any DAC?]”

Plenty of DAC’s can perform both OS and NOS. In fact, the Jay’s Audio DAC can do both. 

https://www.jays-audio.com/product-page/jay-s-audio-signature-dac-2

OP: I post only to help you. If you don’t want my input, just pm me rather than posting a sarcastic response. 


which combination is likely to be better:
1. A putatively superior NOS transport [Jay’s Audio] with an OS-capable DAC, but in strictly NOS mode [Jay’s Audio], or
2. A putatively inferior OS-capable transport [Nuprime] with an OS-capable DAC, in OS mode [Jay’s Audio].

The answer to this question is simple option 
is the right way to go.
CD transport should be restricly NOS with very low jitter and let the DAC do its work whether you choose to operate the DAC on OS or NOS mode is your choice .

Here is a review of the Cambridge CXC transport only, in it he a/b's against the Oppo 203 this is what he said.

"The CXC sounded cleaner, with smoother, less aggressive treble, livelier dynamics, a deeper soundstage and firmer bass definition than the UDP-203. Basically, the differences were the sort you hear when upgrading digital converters."
https://www.cnet.com/news/if-you-love-cds-you-need-this/

Also does anyone know if this CXC is 44.1 or does it OS the digital stream??

Cheers George
The CXC is 44.1 and doesn't do OS .
Thanks, 100% on this, as my discrete 2r2 dac with DSP chip, it can get it’s code completely wiped if I change some programmable features using a cd file that played into it other than pure 44.1, I know my Linn CD12 as a transport is 44.1 but nowhere could I find if the CXC was.

Cheers George
CD transport shouldn't do OS this is the DAC duty.
Sorry, Sir [itzhak1969] forgive me for saying so, but you really don't know what you are talking about in the particular terms laid out in the OP. 

The OS-capable DACs I am acquainted with and discussing here, the Jay's Audio DAC and the Denafrips Pontus, will not perform an OS conversion of an incoming digital signal sent from a transport unless that transport sends an OS signal. It's that simple.

If the Jay's DAC and Denafrips Pontus receive a 44.1K signal from the transport, they convert a 44.1K signal into an analogue signal and send that along to the preamp. If they receiv an OS-ed signal, say a 96K one, they convert a 96K signal into an analogue signal and send that along to the preamp. It really is that simple.

Yes, yes, the Jay's Audio and Denafrips OS-capable DACs have the necessary capacity to OS. [A near tautology, that.] But a necessary capacity is not a sufficient condition. They require the assistance of an OS-capable transport.

Now, there may be OS-capable DACs out there that have on-board capacity to OS an incoming 44.1K signal, say, to 96K, convert that to an analogue signal, and send that along to the preamp. I don't know about that. But the DACs under discussion here do not.

Thus my quandary.

The best I can tell about the NuPrime digital transport (CDT-8 PRO) and companion DAC (DAC-9) is that the CDT-8 PRO transport can be selected to up sample to higher sampling rates ONLY for the purpose of digital stream data transmission via a compatible digital cable to a downstream DAC (e.g., NuPrime DAC-9) capable of receiving and processing that data stream for a particular digital cable and input. That DAC processing can be done with the received input native digital signal rate from the transport, or with some up- or down-sampled digital signal rate once in the DAC.

That is--and despite what the NuPrime CDT-8 PRO manual and literature states--the NuPrime CDT-8 PRO does not up sample and then down sample to the target signal rate before sending out its digital data stream to the downstream DAC. My Theta DAC confirmed that only the CDT-8 PRO output streams clocked at 44.1kHz and 48kHz would lock on the Theta DAC input receiver.

And I am not convinced that one can strip jitter from a data stream simply by applying up sampling and down sampling tricks. As I said, the native output circuit jitter is quite high from the CDT-8 PRO. Maybe Steve Nugent can chime in on this point.
celander:
Here's what happens when one presses the the Nuprime CDT-8's OS button [the central one on the bottom row of the remote], and then dials up to the desired PCM OS rate, say, 48K x 2 = 96K [by pressing the right button on the bottom row]... the DACs I have used, the Jay's Audio and the Denafrips Pontus, detect that OS input [PCM 96K], while registering that rate in their displays [an LED display for the Jay's, a light for the Denafrips], and then convert that rate to an analogue signal, which they then send to the preamp.

That is what happens, mutatis mutandis, for the other PCM OS rates and the DSD OS rates available on both units.

So, with all due respect, I do not know know you mean when you say that "the NuPrime CDT-8 PRO does not up sample and then down sample to the target signal rate before sending out its digital data stream to the downstream DAC."

If your Theta DAC does not have OS-capability, then, OF COURSE, it [yourTheta DAC] "confirmed that only the CDT-8 PRO output streams clocked at 44.1kHz and 48kHz would lock on the Theta DAC input receiver." That is what a NOS DAC does. But that is not what the OS-capable Jay's Audio and Denafrips DACs do when fed an OS signal from the Nuprime CDT.

I have to wonder.... Do you have some brief to write against the Nuprime DAC? Otherwise, why are you denying the obvious: It does have the capacity to send OS signals to OS-capable DACs.

Finally, I stress a point I made earlier in response to itzhak1969: I have no firm commitment to the Nuprime transport; in fact, as an audioholic, I am positively looking for an excuse to upgrade to the Jay's Audio transport.... If upgrade it would indeed be, given its lack of OS-capability.

Of course, if one has already assumed that NOS all the way is superior to OS, then the choice between transports is settled. But no one so far has given me a definitive reason to think that that is the case.
OP: "Here’s what happens when one presses the the Nuprime CDT-8’s OS button [the central one on the bottom row of the remote], and then dials up to the desired PCM OS rate, say, 48K x 2 = 96K [by pressing the right button on the bottom row]... the DACs I have used, the Jay’s Audio and the Denafrips Pontus, detect that OS input [PCM 96K], while registering that rate in their displays [an LED display for the Jay’s, a light for the Denafrips],...[snip, snip]"

That is what I am saying here: "The best I can tell about the NuPrime digital transport (CDT-8 PRO) and companion DAC (DAC-9) is that the CDT-8 PRO transport can be selected to up sample to higher sampling rates ONLY for the purpose of digital stream data transmission via a compatible digital cable to a downstream DAC (e.g., NuPrime DAC-9) capable of receiving and processing that data stream for a particular digital cable and input. That DAC processing can be done with the received input native digital signal rate from the transport, or with some up- or down-sampled digital signal rate once in the DAC."
In short, I agree with you. So where is the disagreement? It’s not with me, so you need to elaborate your position if you disagree..

OP: "So, with all due respect, I do not know know you mean when you say that "the NuPrime CDT-8 PRO does not up sample and then down sample to the target signal rate before sending out its digital data stream to the downstream DAC."

I said the following: "That is--and despite what the NuPrime CDT-8 PRO manual and literature states--the NuPrime CDT-8 PRO does not up sample and then down sample to the target signal rate before sending out its digital data stream to the downstream DAC." It is not my language, but that of NuPrime. Your complaint is misdirected.

OP: "If your Theta DAC does not have OS-capability, then, OF COURSE, it [yourTheta DAC] "confirmed that only the CDT-8 PRO output streams clocked at 44.1kHz and 48kHz would lock on the Theta DAC input receiver." That is what a NOS DAC does. But that is not what the OS-capable Jay’s Audio and Denafrips DACs do when fed an OS signal from the Nuprime CDT."

My Theta DSPro basic IIIa is an 8x OS DAC. Is the CDT-8 PRO transport capable of up sampling a 44.1kHz signal to a 352.8kHz signal? Yes, but the CDT-8 PRO failed to deliver the signal to the Theta DAC. Why? Because the Theta DAC only accepts 44.1kHz or 48kHz INPUT data signals and only over-samples the digital data stream to 8x during digital processing once in the DAC. So you see, it depends upon how the DAC processes its digital signal after receipt, and OS means a lot of different things depending upon a given DAC. This may be more an issue about up-sampling digital data streams at an input receiver of a DAC vs. oversampling digital data once inside the DAC. Just saying..

OP: "I have to wonder.... Do you have some brief [sic] to write against the Nuprime DAC? Otherwise, why are you denying the obvious: It does have the capacity to send OS signals to OS-capable DACs."

I have no bias against or in favor of the DAC-9. I did not like the CDT-8 PRO transport, as it has high output jitter and did not improve the SQ of my audio system. I have no opinion about OS v. NOS transports DACs of any manufacture.
"The OS-capable DACs I am acquainted with and discussing here, the Jay’s Audio DAC and the Denafrips Pontus, will not perform an OS conversion of an incoming digital signal sent from a transport unless that transport sends an OS signal. It’s that simple"

You are really don’t understand what I am trying to explain you CD transport shouldn’t be OS this is the DAC duty so if you insist to do OS you should buy for example the Jay transport and since the Jay DAC is no OS find another good DAC with OS capability.
Everybody here trying to explain you that Jay combination of transport and DAC is very good option despite it doesn’t do OS and OS capability is not necessary improving the sound (and IMO it might degrade it ! ) and that the Nuprime is not a very good transport (its OS capability doesn’t make it good gear!) but your wrong assumption that OS is a must to achieve good sound making you not listen to what people trying to explain to you here so really there is no point to continue explain to you what you should do or not do.

OS process making improvements is a myth .it don’t. Only if a professional studio taking a low resolution recording and remaster the original recording in a complicated and expensive process this can be a real improvement OS if the studio stuff do it right.
There are some transports that upsample, here is CD transport that allows you to pick which sampling frequency you want it to stream (switch on the back), I think remembering a CAL or Arcam transport only, that did that too.

Choose which output sampling rate 44.1kHz / 88.2kHz / or 96kHz you want.
http://www.olasonic.us/nanocompo/nanocd1.html
3 sampling frequencies, 44.1/88.2/96kHz, can be selected to compare the sound difference

Cheers George
itzhak1969:
Why do you keep referring to my "wrong assumption that OS is a must to achieve good sound making"?
I assume no such thing. I simply leave it an open question.
Perhaps you should too.
Many people regard it highly. Not all of the them have any financial stake in the matter.  
georgehifi:
Thanks for the heads-up on another transport with OS capability.

 "no such thing. I simply leave it an open question.
Perhaps you should too.
Many people regard it highly. Not all of the them have any financial stake in the matter.  "

There is no even one single high end pure cd transport that using OS method the very few that do  are cheap entry level transports and that fact saying all.
If you insist  trying to match entry level transport as the Nuprime with high end Jay dac and hope to achieve good sound by doing that I wish you all the luck  ... well it's your money and you can spend it as you wish.
You are one very broken record, Sir.
OP: Best of luck in your search for good CD playback. 
Many thanks....But....I do wish that I had received more illumination on the question of comparison I raised in the OP.

C'est la vie.
Be grateful for the input you received. A lot of original posts end up without any replies.
That is a fair comment, celander.
There is no even one single high end pure cd transport that using OS method the very few that do are cheap entry level transports and that fact saying all.

Sorry Itzhak yes there are.
Selectable upsampling: 1×selectable switch providing three sample rates (44.1kHz, 176.4kHz, 705.6kHz)
And at over $10kusd I wouldn’t call it cheap or entry level.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/chord-electronics-blu-mk2-upsampling-cd-transport/

There are many more if you search, like I said even odd ones from the old days had it, not as many selections as this from Chord but 44.1 and 88.2 I remember.

EG: North Star Model 192 Transport 16/44 and 24/192
https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1127919-north-star-192-cd-transport.jpg
http://en.all-specs.net/model/704075/

Cheers George
George you correct dCS Rossini has OS transport with clock ,Player costs $28,499, the Clock $7499 but they are rare.
In my opinion better to use NOS transport and if you really want OS buy quality DAC with OS and NOS switch option and have the flexibility to choose what is the best for you .OS is very complicated process entry level transports implement low quality chipsets and they can not do OS correctly.OS is not a magical solution to improving sound.
Many in the thread below found the NOS sounds better :

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/non-oversampling-nos-vs

Another interesting essay how OS might harm the sound :

https://www.kitsunehifi.com/nosvsos/
itzhak1969
That is interesting.
What are some of the DACs that have an onboard switch that allows the user to choose between OS and NOS mode, even if the incoming signal from the transport is strictly NOS?
For example the Chord 2qute DAC.


Bellow interesting thread that OS just made things worst and why :

"However, the fact that the sample value is only an approximation based on resolution creates problems. Conversion to a higher bit rate, although strictly able to hold all the frequencies (per the above), is compromised because the sampled wave isn’t perfect. Digitisation errors will occur."


https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/119932-should-i-upsample-with-chord-dac/

My best advice is to buy the Jay transport to your Jay dac substantial improved sound is guarantee.