Which sub would you choose?

I am considering buying either two Audio Physic Minos or a single Wilson Audio Watchdog. My room is 15 by 20 with 10 ft. ceilings. I use the system equally for two channel and HT. My equipment is as follows. CB2 processor, Faroudja video processor, Front left and right and center speakers are Kharma 3.2 floor standing monmitors, the surrounds and rears are Aerial Acoustics LR3 and SR3. The front projector is a Sony G70. I have heard great things about both subs. Which would work best for me?
As someone who's Sold Wilson for years, I think what you have here is a case where you can EASILY spend way more money than you'll possibly get back sonically if you're not careful here! Bass is the single most system set up factored, room placement critical(as well as seating location corespondingly), acoustically challenged, an EXPERIENCE dependent factor!!! You can MOST ASURADLY spend the money you're talking about spending, and get EASILY MUCH BETTER PERFORMANCE and sonics from a much cheaper sub, set up by a knowledgeable, skilled, EXPERIENCED individual!...I can't understate this enough!
I guess what I'm saying is that, from someone who sells the WatchDog, it's a very good woofer by itself. Is it worth what is sells for sonically? In my oppinion, no. But then that's me. If you can afford the money, than I think you should buy one. But make no mistake about it, you won't get $10k+ worth of world class bass out of a single Watchdog, just because you have the woofer!!!!!!...that is correct. World class bass doesn't come from great woofers, it comes from the skilled technician who's putting your sytem together, placing your woofers(or speakers), and calibrating your bass in your room!!
I've seen/heard it hundreds, even thousands of times before! People buy the best products and the most expensive money can buy, and they don't get the performance they're capable of most alsways!...not by a long shot when it comes to bass performance in a given room!
My suggestion might be to buy A COUPLE (or more)excellent high performance, yet more reaonably price woofers, like maybe M&K's excellent MX5000's. Revel's B15 or whatever, even Velodyn's FSR 18's will sufice. I hear excellent things about the Pricy Whise Profounder, which is still way less than a Wilson Woofer if you must pay a ton for ONE WOOFER!!! You could even spend far less on SEVERAL WOOFERS, PROPERLY SET UP OF COURSE(carefull, or Phase cancellation is an issue), and buy like a bunch of Paradigm Servo 15's! Heck, 4 of those would only be a little over $6k new, and you'd have way more to work with sonically! MOre dynamic ease, potentially quicker response, better transient attack, smoother bass response in the room, and a more effortless dynamic overall!..not to mention they're musical subs on their own.
Acually, there's a lot of excellent subs. But I'd probably buy 2 or 3 of the Thiel subs at less than the Wilson's single sub price, and get potentially much better results driving em for L/C/R's, before I bought a $10k sub. Again, just a perspective.
At any rate, do what you need to do. I just don't see the value in the performance that woofer offers for such a rediculous price. Especially when you consider it's only ONE WOOFER!!...which already has it's challenges and draw backs or limited applications effectively.
Also, I need to ask who's setting up and calibrating the woofer for you? And, how exeperienced are you at setting up systems properly? I've just been over to too many audiphiles home's, who own very expensive TRICK subs, only to hear what' DEFINITELY sub-par top caliber bass performance! And we're talking just about every time here!! It's never anything to write home about.
Here, once again, it all comes down to knowing what you're doing with the right gear, especially with woofers and bass performance. If you don't have someone who's going to do it for you, then I HIGHLY SUGGEST you invest some SERIOUS time to learning how to make a subwoofer proplerly integrate and work into your room and system!...this one make take more time to learn than you think for really really good results in small acoustic spaces like these!
Good luck
I think foreverhifi offers some very good advice. I have listened to the Watchdog, and it is an excellent subwoofer, but how much better is it at $10k vs a very good $3k sub. You could spend less and buy 2 sub woofers. Two are much easier to place and get a flat response. The other aspect is the Revel uses a parametric EQ, similar to our PARC design. This can really help bass mode problems with subs, and large speakers and allows proper speaker room integration very easily. Using subs now is now very common as their designs have gone from being the HT booming thing to something that really adds that last octave in a musical way. But it's integration with the rest of the system and the room is what is key to achieving that musical quality as well as the HT boom--even in HT it should come across as natural and not just a motor box in the corner. There are two things I would direct you to that might be helpful. Both on our website, www.rivesaudio.com Go to the listening room. In the speaker section there is a download for speaker placement, and it goes into subwoofer placement and 2 vs 1 subwoofer. The other area is to click on the modes, and this describes the bass modes that can be caused by any low frequency interaction with the room. As stated, we design a PARC that compensates for this problem, but Revel has wisely incorporated this same type of technology in their B-15 subwoofer. I don't think it's as sophisticated as what we have done, but it is cost effective and very useful for sub integration. (Yes, our PARC can be used for other subwoofers as well).
How about the Aerial? Best sub I've ever heard. $10K for a $700 woofer in a big box? No way.
I have a wilson sub in my listening room right now sitting next to a velodyne 18, I will tell you that I think the velodyne is better regardless of price, and I will be taking the wilson back to the store. I have to say also that I am a wilson puppy 6 owner and love them set up with atma-sphere mp1 pre and ma2 amp. I have not heard a system that I like better. I am also very sure there is a better system in many a home.
So now, just for curriosity's sake "Rivercitylad", I would like to know if you STILL plan on buying a Watchdog woofer? Also, has any of what has been said above caused you to possibly rethink your choices?...currious.
Really, a good woofer(or more..even better) properly set up, with good seating location, and with possible parametric EQ'ing, and you would be shocked at what's possible! Even modestly good subwoofers, properly set up and calibrated will do some very good things sonically.
Have fun...
Thanks for the insight in sub selection. I think I will rule out getting a single sub and focus on which pair to buy. I think my choice will be between the REL Stenor , the Aerial SW12 and the Audio Physic Mimos. Anybody have and feedback on these three? Thanks, Rivercitylad
All three of those are very good. I have not heard the Stenor, but have heard enough of the other REL models that I can imagine what they would sound like. It really comes down to system matching at this point, and that is not very easy with subwoofers. I have not heard your speakers with any subwoofers, so I don't think I can offer very much here. Perhaps someone with your speakers can speak on their experience with subwoofer integration.
My first thought on the subs you last mentioned, is "great for music potentially, but no grunt for HT!" Everyone's experience here may be different, but I think the woofers you're considering will be more designed with music as a priority in mind. Smaller rooms might do better with more delicate music subs with higher Q factor with HT. But Slamm, impact, and authority might suffer in more agressive and ambitious HT and music set ups! I guess it depends on your needs and applicaitons.
For me, I like subs that can GROWL for HT, and still remain tight and musical. The more expensive Revel B15, M&K MX series subs(depending on room size), Paradigm Servo 15(baragin for HT and music at $1600 new!), And the single standing Infinity Prelude MTS subs with Paramtric EQ (like Revel B15), are dynamight audiphile grade subs overall! For affordable, fast, musical sounding subs for all medium, I think the Servo 15 and NHT Sub 2 are hard to beat for the money!
Good luck
Thanks for the feedback. I would love to here from someone who has actually heard the Mimos. I think I will take my time and look at everything I can at the CES show in Jan. Rivecitylad
check out the Piega speaker system featured in this months Home Theater Mag. The woofer is 3095.00. I'm replacing a Revel System on Saturday sub and all.
I'm not sure how much money you wanted to spend, but check out the Vandersteen V2W sub in a dealer demo. It's what I've got in my 5.1 home theater and I love it! Sells for $1200 new. It actually received 5 stars in practically every category in Widescreen Review Magazine subwoofer review issues last year. One of the only subs that scored higher was the Revel B15, which is an awesome sub but much higher in price. Good luck to you.
When you mentioned Rel I felt you were on the right track. The Rel Subs are incredible for music and excellent for HT as well. The Rel will allow for easy setup into your system by allowing both a high pass and low pass signal to be hooked up at the same time. This means no tweaking when switching from HT to 2 channel and visa versa. The Rel subs are sometimes looked down upon for HT because they lack "slam". What they really lack is distortion. My Rel creates a bass so low that you feel it inside you instead of hearing it at loud levels. Some dislike this but I tend to find it "accurate". Put a couple Stentor IIIs in your room setup by a professional and you may need to look into learning home improvement skills to fix your walls.
aerial sw 12 mid price and mirage bps 400 low end
Hi, All

I have to make similar decision aobut buying SW12. Currently, I have Aerial 10T, CC3 and snell for HT's rear speaker. I thought Aerial 10T is full range and don't need SUB and like to know your opinion. Do we need same brand SUB and Speaker? How about Velodyne HGS-18 ? Is this worth to invest another 4K or 3K for used on SW12? Why SW12 is cost twice more than HGS-18? Is this going to make big difference with SUB? Please advise.
The Aerial will mate perfectly with the 10 s and I cant stress enough the importance of matching a sub to your mains. Other than incorrect center channel placement , the single biggest mistake made in multichannel is the sub. Get the aerial and forget about life for a while. It is astounding and for full range , yes the 10 t s do benifit.
Hi, Brainwater

Any reason you did not buy LR3 for your rear system?
The lr 3 s are a fantastic dedicated surround speaker. My main goal is reproduction of multichannel and I have felt that a no compromise set up would need matching speakers in rear but I have heard lr3 s with 10 ts and the results are fabulous. I am able to go that xtra mile so I do but it is by no means a signifigant sacrifice to use the lr3 s .
Hi, Brainwater

I have Lexicon NT512- 5 channel amp. I used two-Front L/R, One-Center, One-sub. Only one channel left. How can use one channel for two rear speakers except they share the smae channel?
You are using a passive sub I take it so my suggestion would certainly be to get a brideable amp { like an Adcom 555 11 } and use it for the sub thereby freeing up the xtra channel for the other surround. Of course you could eventually get an active sub with its own amp inside {most come that way anyway}.