Which speakers will fill 5,000 cubic ft coherently


In porevious threads I've bemoaned the fact that my Kharma 3.2 FEs don't fill the room, 17 X 23 X 15 ft ceilings with a vertical enough soundstage, as though the speakers are literally too small. I have been advised to raise them,which I have done, , I have told to get taller, line arrays, even given names of custom speaker makers. Any specic recommendations from those that have had, and have conquered, this issue.
springbok10
Gilmore Audio Model 2
My Meridian DSP8000,s fill a 6000 sq foot space with sound coherently.
I use the Kharma 1.0 speakers and believe me they fill the room...and with only 30 watts tube amp.........Room is 24'x 23' with 12 foot ceiling.......
I'm in a room similar to yours. Cathedral type ceilings...about 18ft hight. My Wilson Watt Puppy 8's are pretty awesome.

I have had Wilsons in smaller rooms before, while they were great, the extra breathing room helps them open up.

Professional installation - or following the Wilson set up procedures are a must.

Have some room pics posted under my system...
I have a similar difficult room and have solved the issue with Tyler Woodmeres go to the website and look at the speaker, Bass drivers top and bottom, mid and treble array at ear level these speakers will solve your large room needs without taking up much floorspace....
The big Sound-Labs would love a room like yours.
The accuton drivers are not well known for playing loud/dynamically. So it is not surprising that a two way with these drivers might struggle in a large space. To me I don't think you need to go overkill - most equivalent price range three or four ways would make you much happier, IMHO.

I am not sure you need to go overkill but if you want beauty and assurance that you will be able to fill the space then Dynaudio Temptations, Wilson Alexandrias, Evolution MM3's would all do it without a single doubt in my mind.
My overall space is 45' x 20' x 18' (tall). My Zu Definition 2s sit at one end and fill the entire space with music with ease.
You need to better specify what volume level you desire. You should also state what amp(s) you would be using.
80-90 db, Atma-Sphere MA 2.2 OTLs, 220 WPC.
Budget: $15K (new or used)
Could it be that your speakers are big enough, but the real problem is dynamic compression if they are forced to produce full range music they they can't in order to fill the room? Even many larger full-range speakers have a single midrange and high frequency driver that are placed very close to one another, with additional drivers used to fill in the bottom octaves. Maybe adding a subwoofer or two can solve the problem. It might be worth trying before changing our your mains.
Get some horns why mess arround you have a large space get a large loudspeaker to fill it. Or you will be back asking why your new loudspeakers dont fill your room.
>>Get some horns why mess arround you have a large space get a large loudspeaker to fill it.<<

Tyler Woodmeres, Dynaudio Temptations are large.......
Horns are ugly. Wife hates ugly. Also, I'm not changing amps.
>>Could it be that your speakers are big enough, but the real problem is dynamic compression if they are forced to produce full range music they they can't in order to fill the room? <<

I dont know how to answer that. Anybody?
Classic Audio Reproductions T3 or T5. Ralph owns the T1.

Or, Duke's Audiokinesis Jazz Modules.

Or, Zu Audio Presence.

Any of these will fill the room and work tremendously well with the Atma amps.
One of the best rooms at RMAF to my ears was quite large and was filled effortlessly by the TAD/Pioneer speakers. They sounded superb and were one of the few rooms there that had me wanting to go back to listen to more. I believe they demand some current though and I didn't notice what amps you are using. If I had a $15k budget to pick speakers at RMAF I absolutely would not hesitate there: TAD. The S1-EX was astoundingly good at $9K, so you'll have change to buy different amps if you need'em. At the show they were driving them with BelCanto Ref1000's which sounded great with a wide range of source material. You could wait for the TAD Reference 1 to come to market but I think the price was going to be around $45k. If you check out the reviewers takes on RMAF and CES this year you'll notice them noted as favorite highlights by many a reviewer as well as folks in the forums here. I have no idea how your wife will feel about their looks, but I cannot imagine not liking the way they reproduce music.
FWIW, Classic Audio Reproductions loudspeakers utilize TAD/Pioneer drivers.
FWIW, Classic Audio Reproductions loudspeakers utilize TAD/Pioneer drivers.

I didn't know that, but they sounded quite good with Ralph's amps at RMAF. I didn't go there because of Springbok10's comment about his wife's distaste for the appearance of horns. For me horns come in all shapes and sizes so I don't really get the blanket rejection. The CAR speakers were gorgeous to my eyes and did sound great, as I said. The TAD Pioneers would still get my vote and $ were I to choose. But, for a huge-room filling sound I do agree that horns are an excellent recommendation and the CAR speakers were outstanding and may indeed to better at filling a huge room. The CAR speakers were playing in one of the largest rooms at the show (greater in volume than Springbok10's) and had no problems filling that room with lifelike sound. The TAD Pioneers were in a large room as well, but the volume of that room was significantly smaller as the ceilings were lower. Still, it was probably equal to the volume of the room Springbok10 is trying to fill. Those speakers just seemed to do everything right.
sounds like time for Sunny brand speakers.
Larry
If you scroll down the page on the Classic Audio Reproductions Contemporary Line page, you will see the T5. These look like traditional box speakers, yet they are 94dB and 16 ohms. I don't believe the T5 use a horn, although the T3 do...and they don't look like traditional horn speakers either.
Thank you for the very helpful responses. The Classic Audio Reproduction line look fine, but are too wide for my space. The Kharamas are 7" wide - I cant go much beyond 10" wide to fit in the apce between the amp Boxes and the corners.
10" wide limit? Wow.

Maybe something from the Coincident line...
There are 2 speakers that will blow you away if you like slam.I just learned what that ment using ab ae-3 pre cheap as dirt with tubes that cost more th it vdid.
#1. IRS Vs ask Bill at Millersound if he can get them the Atmas will be fine the 6 woofer line array is self powered. The WAF factor might be a problem at 7' and 4 columns but I never herad anything better. They are Rare the only guy who seems to know where they are is Bill. Also your budget might be strecht.
The other is the famous but now forgotten Duntechs a very big speaker reccommened to me but my dedicated listening area wont accomodate them. Believe it not these ultra speakers sell for $3,00 to $5,000. They heavy at 350 lbs each but if you want fine detail and don't play at 90 db wich considerable I know . A friend and I tried to listen to Bad to the Bone at 100Db and up. I just couldn't takeit. BTW we used my vintage Klipsch La Scalas. No onev was killed or injured. I wouldn't try that with my JMs which are "Old Hat" but the utopias are great.
Ralph I thought Liked the Klipsch imitations, like the man said CAR I tyhink>
If you scroll down the page on the Classic Audio Reproductions Contemporary Line page, you will see the T5. These look like traditional box speakers, yet they are 94dB and 16 ohms. I don't believe the T5 use a horn, although the T3 do...and they don't look like traditional horn speakers either.

Have you heard those speakers, Grant? The ones they had at the show that I was responding to were from their "Classic" line. I did not see the "Contemporary" line there(or perhaps I just didn't notice them as the Classics have a very commanding presence). Certainly neither would not fall into any 10" wide limit though. Coincident is a good call. Vienna Acoustics Mahlers perhaps, those also sounded great and are very capable of room-filling sound. Neither impressed me more than the TADs though. Can't recall if they'd fall into the 10" limit, but they'd probably be close.
>>03-16-08: Tvad
10" wide limit? Wow.<<

I can stretch it to 18" - just wont be able to open the drawer next to it. That means the Tyler Woodmeres, Zu Definitions, Presesnce of those mentioned, would do. There's a used pair of the former on A'gon for $6,500
I would think the impedance curve of the Zu Definition, Presence, or any of the Coincident speaker lineup would be better suited than the Tylers to your Atma-Sphere amps.
Tvad, I appreciate your input thus far (as usual). Which of all these contenders have you heard?
I've head the Definitions and the top-of-the-line Coincident model, but honestly I don't believe it matters what I think of them. What's most important is that the speakers you consider have impedance specs that mate with your amps. Ask Ralph.
How about Dali Megalines? I've seen them used at 15k, but you will need to biamp and may want to upgrade the Xover. Nevertheless, they will fill your space coherently and are about 10" wide. Check Albert Porter's virtual system here on Agon.
Audiofeil have a pair of Defintions that have an impedance of 30 that are custom made specifically for OTL amps. I'll ask Ralph about the Woodmeres.
I'm not sure how the Megalines would do with OTL's.
Tyler Woodmere have a nominal impedance of 4 ohms, which means they have a minimum impedance lower than 4 ohms.

Atma-Sphere recommends a minimum impedance of no lower than 8 ohms, and preferably not below 6 ohms.
cant go much beyond 10" wide to fit in the apce between the amp Boxes and the corners.

Please Please don't tell me you are placing such awesome speakers in a corner or near a sideboard or drawer with sharp angles - this will definitely affect the soundstage and may collapse it to the speakers (edge diffraction = claustrophobic sound)

=> this might be a major part of your problem...any reflections within less than 7 msecs can severely affect the openess of the sound...the worst is that everything collapses to the speakers. My rule of thumb is a minimum of three feet from side walls but four feet or more is safest. Remember our ears sense timing for where a sound comes from....the time a signal arrives is how you interpret where it is (you have to go 10 DB SPL louder to make your brain pay attention to "loudness" rather than arrival time cues) Now when you clutter or crowd early arrivals with edge diffraction of reflections it can really mess up the size of the soundstage.
Tyler says no problem with the Woodmeres and Bill at Atma-Sphere says no problem (4 ohms, dips to low 3's, 91 db sensitivity)- so it seems between the Zu Definitions and Woodmeres so far.........

03-17-08: Springbok10
Tyler says no problem with the Woodmeres and Bill at Atma-Sphere says no problem (4 ohms, dips to low 3's, 91 db sensitivity)- so it seems between the Zu Definitions and Woodmeres so far.........
I find that surprising, and almost incredible. The advice from Bill is completely at odds with advice Ralph has given me over the past few months.

It does not surprise me that Tyler would say no problem.

I guess you'll find out when you hear the combo.

You might consider trying Speltz Zero boxes with the Tylers to double (or triple) their impedance.
>> 3-17-08 Tvad: I find that surprising, and almost incredible. The advice from Bill is completely at odds with advice Ralph has given me over the past few months.<<

I'll find Ralph and clarify this before taking a b-i-g 500 lb step like this.
Ralph's advice about no less than 6 ohms and preferably not less than 8 ohms is right.

I've tried the Speltz autoformer. Although I really like the speltz cables, I do not recommend the autoformer. I've tried it. I believe it exists as a band-aid for those who have an amp/speaker mismatch and it may be helpful in that context. It does, however, introduce problems of its own. IMHO, a seller who recommends buying a 4ohm speaker and the autoformer to go with the Atma is doing a disservice.

Again, with a room that large, why are you limited to a 10" speaker width? Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation, but any of these speakers need breathing room around them and you have a big room.
Using outboard transformers with OTL amplifiers rather defeats the purpose. Appropriate speaker matching will make more sense and bring better results. Also must agree with Shadorne about cramming high performance speakers into too small a space. This will waste your money.
Most manufacturers are becoming very desperate for sales. Be sure to verify what they claim about their products.
I had Definitions and they are almost 12.5 inches across the front. I now have Presence which have a 14 inch baffle width.

My question for you is: If your room is so large, why must you squueze your speakers into a narrow space?

For what it's worth, the last I heard, Ralph himself was using Zu Druids.
>>3-17-08 Macrojack
My question for you is: If your room is so large, why must you squeeze your speakers into a narrow space?<<
Do you really need to know the geography of my living room? Surely it would bore you??? Take it from me, I have no more than 18". If I knew how to post a photo, I would.
>>05-21-07: Atmasphere
Anytime you are investing in tube amplifier technology, that investment will be best served by a speaker that is at least 8 ohms or more.

Tube amps, with rare exception, have reduced performance into four ohms.<<

So that makes the Defintion AFI the best choice, (30 ohm impedance) particularly since there is a 60 day in-home trial. Can anybody tell me why there are such divided camps on the Definition? I have read about the "Zu sound". Anybody expand on that?
And them, of course, I have to sell the Kharmas - not an easy job in today's economy.
To take a step back for a second, you're more likely to have success if you first match the speakers to the room and then match an amplifier to the speakers. You seem to be trying to collapse these two separate steps into one. Not that it can't be done, but it greatly limits your options. In other words, why are you so tied to your amp?

If the emphasis is on coherent sound you might also consider the larger coaxial designs from Altec (Great Plains Audio), the big classic styled Tannoys or the various Phy based speakers. They are all very efficient and like tubes.
Can anybody tell me why there are such divided camps on the Definition?
Springbok10 (Reviews | Threads | Answers)
It's no different than any other speaker or component. Some people like the sound, and other people don't.

Audition them in your home and you decide.
You don't need the speltz if you use the new 30 ohm Zu def 2 speakers...
>>03-18-08: Onhwy61
To take a step back for a second, you're more likely to have success if you first match the speakers to the room and then match an amplifier to the speakers. You seem to be trying to collapse these two separate steps into one. Not that it can't be done, but it greatly limits your options. In other words, why are you so tied to your amp?<<

1. They weigh 250 lbs together
2. I built a special 7 ft coffin with hinges to accomodate them
3. They are the best amplifiers I ever heard
4. They are the most reliable piece of equipment I own, despite the 58 tubes
5. The task is not so impossible - to find an 8 ohm speaker is not so hard
Get somebody to take a digital photo or two and post your system with the photos on agon under member systems. Given your limitation of 18" in your large room, you may have a setup issue that could benefit from some helpful agon member comments before you can make any convincing loudspeaker assessment.
The prefect speaker for is the LS9 by AV123 it is 8ohm.
http://av123.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=36&Itemid=37
Springbok, I now understand your desire not to switch amps, but I'm still not sure about the limitations about where you can place the loudspeaker. It's highly unlikely that a speaker of the performance you are considering will work optimally in the narrowly prescribed area you can position them. You may have boxed yourself into a coffin -- so to speak.
Springbok,

Why not try pulling those beautiful Kharma's well out into the room and away from the side walls....(while the wife is out) and see if it sounds better?
Shadorne, exactly what I suggested in Springbok's last thread.