Which speakers did you find bright, fatiguing or just disappointing in some way?


OK, controversial subject but it needs asked. I'm curious for your experiences, mainly in your home, not a dealer and esp. not a show demo
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wilson watt puppies w spectral amplification 
In my home? Well the worst by far was JBL L7. This was back around '90 or '91. They didn't last long. Very hard on the ears. The day I sold them, after getting used to their replacement, the JBL were like an ice pick in my ears. Can't believe I ever liked that JBL sound.

Next worst one in my home were Von Schweikerts. Forget the model, but they were highly hyped at the time. By hype I mean reputation far exceeds performance. They were okay, but rather drab, like everything was there, except life and vitality. Not the best detail either. Not fatiguing though, not that I recall. Just disappointing. Heck even the cabinet construction was disappointing. Oh well.

Never heard Wilson in my home. But you hear them so many other places, hooked up to so much other stuff, after a couple decades I just don't need to get them in my room to know they will be a disappointment. Any of them. All of them. 

@millercarbon 

Wilson use some of the best drivers on the planet and use thick rigid cabinets. There's nothing to criticize there. The only possible explanation is that the crossover may not be tuned to your preference. But that doesn't give you a reason to write them off. Perhaps fix your room? That's probably the other reason. 
The Cabasse Farella 401 speakers hit on all cylinders when paired with a quality SE or PP tube amp but hook a SS amp up to them and they would drive you from the room. Bright, fatiguing and light in the bass although the bass was always tuneful. Even pairing them with the class A SE SS Pass Labs Aleph 3 was a huge step in mitigating their bright signature but they are a real Jekyll and Hyde speaker if there ever was one.
B&W 803 matrix, that was a good double mistake as i bought them having heard only 804 and not in my room. Before that a DIY project with Audax drive units.

G
Green Mount Audio Europa. Bright and fatiguing describes the perfectly.
In my home:

Focal (demo), Klipsch Palladium (owned), B+W Diamond Series (demo)

In someone else's home:

Tekton with the Be upgrade, Wilson with the Focal tweeters (no shocker, however I DO like the Wilsons with the new Soft Dome tweeter)

Demoed in multiple stores:

Paradigm Persona, the entire line-up.  The ONLY time I thought they sounded good was a pair of the 7's with McIntosh Electronics, using Vinyl as the source.


B&W 703s with Rotel front end. My first system. Upper mids shredded my ears and they had to be cranked to open the mids up.
Sadly I feel the current models have the same issue.
I have low ceilings, so I really don't know if this is indicative of anything but my room, but:

Focal 936s. Even with burn in, they were really too bright. Fantastic soundstage, though.

ML Motion 60s XTi. Also too bright, but a lovely airy quality too.

And of course the worst speaker of all time, the Tekton Moabs. Could there be a worse, more cheaply built, crap speaker? Oy. (Just kidding. Just having some fun with their fanboy.)


To many to mention.
Green Mount Audio Europa. Bright and fatiguing describes the perfectly.

@bdgregory I consider your claim to be dubious, and if accurate, almost certainly related to your associated equipment.

I had the Europas, followed by the Callisto, and while the latter was certainly a step forward, I would never have characterized the former as "bright and fatiguing". I was using a Jeff Rowland Concentra integrated amp, and Electrocompaniet EMC-1up CD player.

There is a very detailed review of the Europas here on Audiogon, entitled "Review: Green Mountain Audio Europa Monitor". That user's experience is far more in line with most, I would say.

There are many more opinions on a thread entitled "A few questions for Green Mountain Europa owners", and the words "harsh" and "bright" are never used to describe the sound.


“And of course the worst speaker of all time, the Tekton Moabs. Could there be a worse, more cheaply built, crap speaker? Oy. (Just kidding. Just having some fun with their fanboy.)”

Derailed in 3...2...1...
So many 'hi end' speakers need careful setup that A speaker I sold, the revel salon 1 and 2 for not coupling with my room are much loved by their new owners, but they weren't bright, just boring. The speakers that gave me fits for 15 of the 25 years I owned them were the Kef R105/3. I bought them when my new bride was 8 months pregnant and a week before we were to move into our 1st home and I knew the party was over. I eventually did enough side jobs to find a partnering amp that brought out the best in them.
The Cabasse Farella 401 speakers hit on all cylinders when paired with a quality SE or PP tube amp but hook a SS amp up to them and they would drive you from the room. Bright, fatiguing and light in the bass although the bass was always tuneful. Even pairing them with the class A SE SS Pass Labs Aleph 3 was a huge step in mitigating their bright signature but they are a real Jekyll and Hyde speaker if there ever was one
i agree with the statement above... one of my ventures into high efficiency speakers years back... don’t remember which model of cabasse... they were bright and otherwise grim and unruly
Any with poor treble.

Basically all of them have crossover issues, sibilance issues, beaming issues, dispersion issues, distortion issues.

Some of them are quite unbearable. Some are more tolerable.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a speaker you can turn right up and continue enjoying clean pristine treble?

Is there even such a thing?
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a speaker you can turn right up and continue enjoying clean pristine treble?

Is there even such a thing?

Of course. If you dont custom tune to your ears speakers will sound bright. Now stop complaining and start enjoying the music
@whipsaw 

you are completely wrong I'm afraid. The green mountains don't even exist anymore. Theyve just disappeared as if by magic. They all used a cheap 6 inch car woofer that cost about 5 dollars and a cheap tweeter too. They never did good bass because the cabinets were too small for the woofers. They also used badly designed crossovers that were too shallow to protect the tweeters. They never achieved much success because they sounded so bad. I read in another thread that many customers paid green mountain audio for speakers which never arrived before the company suddenly disappeared, leaving these poor folks with losses of several thousands of dollars. They are the worst sounding speakers I have ever heard. 
kenjit –

Your extreme bias against GMA and the late Roy Johnson, and ludicrous attacks against them, have been well-exposed on this forum. Any readers who think that I am being hyperbolic should refer to this thread, on which Johnson himself exposed kenjit's claims for what they are:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/warmest-sounding-green-mountain-speaker

The fact that the manufacturer no longer exists is completely irrelevant. GMA had a strong following, and for a small, boutique manufacturer, did well enough to make owners of its speakers happy for ~20 years, prior to Roy's unfortunate death.

Nobody on this forum will take you seriously on this topic, and for good reason.
Post removed 
"before the company suddenly disappeared"

Was that before or after Roy Johnson got sick and then died 3-4 months later?

DeKay
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a speaker you can turn right up and continue enjoying clean pristine treble?

Is there even such a thing?


yes, but not inexpensive...
Was that before or after Roy Johnson got sick and then died 3-4 months later?
It was after. Does that make it ok that several customers lost a lot of money? I don't think so. They should be refunded. 
The fact that the manufacturer no longer exists is completely irrelevant. GMA had a strong following, and for a small, boutique manufacturer, did well enough to make owners of its speakers happy for ~20 years, prior to Roy's unfortunate death.
They had a very small following and the reason they existed for so long without ever growing as a company is because their speakers weren't good enough to compete on the same level as B&w, Magico, Revel, Kef and the like. 

In addition, I do not count myself as one of their customers that were very happy and there are many more that came out the woodwork once the company had disappeared to express their dissatisfaction.

You should be ashamed that you are trying to prevent anybody from expressing a negative view of Green mountain audio. Everybody is entitled to their views whether its good or bad. 
Your extreme bias against GMA and the late Roy Johnson, and ludicrous attacks against them, have been well-exposed on this forum.
No they have not been well exposed. On the contrary they have been well hidden due to my posts being deleted. Threads such as this one, are not welcome on Audiogon. Nothing negative or critical is permitted on the forum in case you hadn't noticed by now. 
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a speaker you can turn right up and continue enjoying clean pristine treble?

Is there even such a thing?

There is. Unfortunately very hard to find. Fast as they build em, fanboys snap em up.
They had a very small following and the reason they existed for so long without ever growing as a company is because their speakers weren't good enough to compete on the same level as B&w, Magico, Revel, Kef and the like.


That's false. There are many different reasons why, or to what extent companies grow, and the quality of the product is only one variable. There is no compelling evidence that GMA failed to grow to a particular level because consumers were disappointed in their speakers. In fact, a very high percentage of all of the feedback on their speakers was positive, as anyone who cares to engage in a broad internet search will discover.

You should be ashamed that you are trying to prevent anybody from expressing a negative view of Green mountain audio. Everybody is entitled to their views whether its good or bad.
It is true that everyone is entitled to their views whether a product is good or bad, but your many posts on this manufacturer reveal an obvious and extreme bias. All that I have done is to point out that fact. You were also dishonest in your dealings with Roy Johnson, as he spelled out in detail on the thread that I linked above. 

Ironically, it is you who should be ashamed, not I.
You were also dishonest in your dealings with Roy Johnson, as he spelled out in detail on the thread that I linked above.
I'm afraid it is you who is being dishonest. Just because he disagreed with my criticism of Green mountain audio, it doesnt mean I was dishonest. It just means there are two sides to the story. You dont know which side is true. Despite this, you have taken his side. That shows you are the one who is biased. 
 In fact, a very high percentage of all of the feedback on their speakers was positive, as anyone who cares to engage in a broad internet search will discover.
I have already done an internet search and what i have found is that it is really only a handful of owners who extol the virtues of their products. 
There is no evidence that green mountain audio were inundated with orders and that they could not keep up. There is no reason a company would deliberately refuse to grow if it had the chance to. What reason do you suggest explains their lack of growth?
Jumping off the speaker merry-go-round remains a vividly satisfying memory.
kenjitTotally on your side this time.
I don’t know OR care about Green Mtn.
But you are spot on.
To answer the OP query none.
Fatigued? Try  coffee.

at the dealer, Paradigm Persona 7F
fastfreight: Which dealer?  My local dealer has them sounding incredible but they always mention how they hear of other dealers setting them up horribly and doing them a great disservice.
I'm afraid it is you who is being dishonest. Just because he disagreed with my criticism of Green mountain audio, it doesnt mean I was dishonest.

I'll simply let readers decide who the dishonest one is, by copying Roy Johnson's summary of your behavior from the linked thread:

Your Green Mtn. speakers were not setup for you by a retailer. You purchased them from us, directly. I have your invoice, emails, Paypal receipt and shipping documents.

They are Chroma speakers, with the time-domain improvements in the crossover circuits compared to original Rio.

Upon delivery and for years afterwards, you had the speakers in a very poor room, quite acoustically inferior in every way. I have your cell phone video showing this and your emails describing it. And you have my helpful response suggesting the best and least-expensive ways in which to fix its acoustic problems and what (and WHY) you would hear along the way.

Six months or more later, after I had not heard from you for quite a while, you took these speakers apart and removed their fiberglass linings. I have your email describing this. In it, you also remark how you cracked at least one marble cabinet by not putting a screw back into its correct hole.

You removed the tweeters, laid the cabinets on their sides, and set the tweeters on the 'new' cabinet tops. I have your email.

You removed the crossover circuits and modified them to second-order circuits, which negates any time-coherence. I have your email.

More than a year after your purchase, after I informed you that these modifications voided your warranty, you lied to American Express by telling them you had been promised a refund. I provided proof to them that this was false and they denied your request for refund. I have the emails on this.

Another year passes without contact, and you lie to AMEX again. This time, their agent did not contact us or Paypal, so AMEX leveraged Paypal to give you a partial refund of US$1200, which you accepted. Paypal removed these funds from our account with no notice. I have the emails to Paypal showing them how you were not promised a refund, and that you had already owned these speakers for YEARS, and that you had modified them. They agreed with me, then told me their contract was with AMEX, not us, so they had to do what AMEX told them. We had to take this financial loss and so I decided we could no longer accept Paypal from any customer, thanks to you.

After receiving this false refund, YOU KEPT THESE SPEAKERS.

Two years later, with no provocation, you began new threads on Audiogon attacking me. Audiogon removed them at my request, after many others posted their responses that something was 'not right' with you, as you would not answer their questions and instead began insulting them. These folks did not even own Green Mtn!


All but 1 of the Thiel speakers I have heard. Wilson with the older tweeter. 
Green mountain has had numerous complaints, I am certainly not the only one. 
Heres a complaint made to bbb:

https://www.bbb.org/us/co/colorado-springs/profile/audio-visual-equipment-rental/green-mountain-audi...

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/r-i-p-rest-in-peace-roy-johnson-green-mountain-audio-s-genius

Here are a few other comments from the thread above. There appears to have been many victims. Hopefully this evidence casts doubt on Roys credibility regarding his views on our transaction.

 I know that myself and several other individuals had prepaid for some upcoming designs that were to include the ribbon tweeter.  
I know I am doubtless the only one who's speakers are currently sitting in his shop, being built, or in various stages of repair or completion. I would love to be able to eventually get them back (mine have been there for several months for a simple crossover cooking)
He had a pair of Chroma HX's almost finished for me... they were supposed to ship mid July.  That will not happen at this point unfortunately
I need replacement woofers , payed for 2 new woofers and had been texting him back and forth for a while. He was in the process of finding a matched set for my speakers when I suddenly couldn't get in touch with him.
I ordered one of his 3-way designs, which represented a significant financial investment for me. I do not know why there was a delay, but they were not delivered until 9 months later, had manufacturing faults, and needed to be returned to the factory. This was not arranged for another 18 months, however. Then, after endless promises, I never received a replacement pair or a refund, and by the time I found that I could sue him from overseas, I was thwarted by a statute of limitations. I remained in contact with Roy, and the promises of a refund never stopped, but I ultimately lost a lot of money.
I too have speakers that he had been reworking for 18 months
he said they were ready and then nothing
no contact email or phone. I’m out big bucks if I can’t contact someone to get them back.
More spend a lot more time and money and drive out to Colorado and who knows what’s left??? Can anyone help me?
However, he has, on more than one occasion, taken money from customers and promised them the world only to not make good on his promises.  
Roy basically lived hand to mouth and was just trying to survive doing what he knew how to do best, make great speakers.
I had once referred a customer to Roy and he promised this poor guy a custom effort on a new pair of speakers he was designing.  Needless to say the customer paid for the speakers but NEVER received them.  More promises and a little more bullshitting.  This went on for over 2 years until the gentleman finally gave up.
Roy’s ability to design was undeniable.  His business prowess was horrific.  He wasn’t a bad person but not everyone knew him the same way.  
For all those who loved the man, I’m not saying Roy wasn’t a great designer.  I AM SAYING that those of us who’ve known him for a long time or tried to do business with him, know (knew) the real Roy.  On that note, I’ll leave it at that and no longer comment on his character.
Some people have concerns (people got swindled) though and you should mind your business.  This is the perfect place for them to seek retribution.  The proper audience is in attendance.
I have already sought advice from a solicitor about making a claim as a creditor against Roy's estate
The gushing responses of people who I am guessing really didnt "know" the man is what necessitates the unsavory posts. I maintain that when you screw people over this becomes part of your legacy.
After lengthy conversations with Roy over the last couple of years, it became obvious that I was going to have to be lucky to get them.The whole thing was a version of go fund me. I paid for speakers more than 4 years ago. I know I will never get them. There was nothing to get from him then, and there is nothing left to get now.
After knowing Roy for 8+ years and speaking with him on a nearly a weekly basis I feared this would become his legacy and told him so. I did own several iterations of his speakers, but stopped doing business with him after our last deal.  After that i always told him if he needed money I would rather him ask, then sell me a product I knew he wasn’t able to deliver.

  • I am still looking for anyone who has been contacted in any way following Roy Johnson’s death. There are a lot of us who have been left hanging with money and speakers in Roy’s possession and no word of anyone who is taking responsibility for his business affairs.
  • I’m sure the family could simply liquidate and pocket the proceeds or Roy could have left a will that included returning goods already paid for to the customers.
  • At this point, all contact numbers and email and website have been terminated.
  • There has been no effort to leave any way to contact someone responsible.
  • If anyone can help, please leave a reply...
Note, readers, that @kenjit did not deny the facts of Roy’s (above) claims on the original thread, nor on this one. That tells you all that you need to know about who is, and is not honest.

As to his attempts at misdirection directly above, it further reveals a lack of honesty. The first link that he provides leads to this "complaint":

08/01/2019

I sent my ************************* to ***********, owner of Green Mountain Audio for repair/upgrades. He has had them in his possession since March 2019. He has been ill and has apparently died. I am wondering how I can get my speakers back from his shop.

A "complaint"? Ludicrous.

The second is a thread from which he extracted the excerpt in his above post. It is apparently true that a small number of customers of Roy’s were left in limbo after his demise. It is also apparently true that a small number had some difficulties with him prior to his death. Neither of those issues are relevant to the obvious fact that kenjit is biased, nor to my initial criticism on this thread. I had simply questioned the "bright and fatiguing" claim of another poster, as I never had that experience, nor can I recall having heard of others having had it.

No one has suggested that everyone liked GMA speakers, nor that Roy was perfect. But kenjit’s "contributions" should be understood through the lens of his obvious bias against both the manufacturer, and Roy himself.
Except for bad designed one, no speakers sound "really" bad......

The factors most of the times explaining the opposite opinion comes from the bad or uncontrolled  acoustical settings of the room, and secondarily to bad mechanical controls and uncontrolled electrical grid...


OK, this is my forum post so PLEASE no more GMA discussions! Let's stay on topic. I could care less about whether GMA did bad or not!
I owned the Tyler Acoustics Taylo 7U. They just sounded blah. They played all of the notes and none of the music. I have owned the Linbrook Super Tower and heard many speaker from the Tyler that I liked at shows. Just not the 7U. 
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a speaker you can turn right up and continue enjoying clean pristine treble?

Is there even such a thing?
And MC replied: "There is. Unfortunately very hard to find. Fast as they build em, fanboys snap em up."

That is just the perfect riposte! Well played!
 Neither of those issues are relevant to the obvious fact that kenjit is biased, nor to my initial criticism on this thread. I had simply questioned the "bright and fatiguing" claim of another poster,


If i was biased against Roy or his speakers why would i buy his speakers in the first place?
I'm afraid your argument just doesnt add up. Why would i be biased against them? If anything i would be biased in favor of them. Its more likely that i am simply reporting the truth.

I never had that experience, nor can I recall having heard of others having had it.
And we have the right to question your claim too. Could it be that you have hearing loss in the highs? That would explain why you cant hear harshness. If you read the hifi reviews of the green mountain Eos and Rio, you will find that the reviewers certainly do allude to the same problems I and others have heard. But as we all know hifi reviewers tend to be biased and they will not severely criticize a speaker design no matter how bad it is. Thats just the way the industry works. The fact that you cant hear the problems that the rest of us can just means you have bad listening skills.
JBL L100’s for sure. Way too bright, and the bass was overpowering. Ear fatigue began within minutes of listening. They lasted about 1 month on my system. 
I thought my GE Triton Reference and ML 60xt were a little uncomfortable with the high notes. But with the addition of the RME ADI2 Dac I was able to tone them down. Now they sound fantastic. Pink Floyd never sounded better.
@kenjit

Setting aside your absurd claim that you are "reporting the truth", a claim that has been demolished by Johnson’s detailed recounting of your behavior, your responses on this thread have one, deeply ironic thing in common: dishonesty. The most recent example:

If you read the hifi reviews of the green mountain Eos and Rio, you will find that the reviewers certainly do allude to the same problems I and others have heard.

The original poster’s claim, and my objection to it, were about the EUROPA, yet you reference two entirely different models, which are obviously irrelevant.

That doesn’t mean that there isn’t anyone who might agree with the original poster, but it very much does underscore your tendency to be dishonest, which is why I have called you out repeatedly on this thread.

And as the old saying goes, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. That’s a piece of advice that you would be well-served by following.


Klipsch Heresy IIs. Initial impression I liked them after 5 minutes not so much. Thought I’d give Cornwall IVs a fair chance due to the positive reviews. I just couldn’t listen to them all day. 
Virtually all Bowers & Wilkins (except one older model).

Daedalus speakers.

Zu Audio.
I LIKE HORN SPEAKERS... HU, WHAT... I SAID, I REALLY LIKE HORN SPEAKERS!  Thought this discussion could use a bit of levity... and actually I do like "some" horn speakers fed SET power.
@whipsaw
Setting aside your absurd claim that you are "reporting the truth", a claim that has been demolished by Johnson’s detailed recounting of your behavior, your responses on this thread have one, deeply ironic thing in common: dishonesty.
There is no evidence that Johnsons account is actually true. Has that occurred to you? Do you realize how biased you are by simply taking his word for it while rejecting mine? Especially now that there is plenty of evidence which goes against his credibility based on how he treated other customers?
The original poster’s claim, and my objection to it, were about the EUROPA, yet you reference two entirely different models, which are obviously irrelevant.
That is not true. They all use the same nasty cheap woofers and they all use the same simple and again cheap crossovers. They all use the same nasty cabinets that is another reason they sound the way they do. All the green mountains have the same coloration to them which is why someone posted a thread on here asking which green mountain speakers was the warmest sounding. This implies they are all cold. I would agree. They are cold, bright, harsh and fatiguing. Pick whatever word you want to describe it but in the end its one reason green mountain could never succeed as a company. There are some people like you who cant hear problems like this and are able to tolerate bad sound. That was the target audience for green mountain audio, hence their lack of success. They were also unreasonably expensive considering the cheap parts they used whereas competitors used much more costly parts. A minority of audiophiles like you are more easily duped than others which is again why green mountain enjoyed limited success but nothing more.
The green mountain speakers were poorly designed. That is why they sounded bright and harsh. They had no baffle step, poor bass extension and they had a lot of diffraction due to the irregular shaped cabinet and the tweeters were being overdriven as the slopes were too shallow. A 4th order slope would have fixed this but Johnson was reluctant to do so because he was a proponent of so called time coherent sound. Even though this has never been proven to be audible let alone important, he prioritized this at the expense of all the other factors which are far more important and certainly audible. The Rios suffered from tonal problems which was reported by the reviewers and corroborated by me and others. But Johnson was very defensive when it came to being criticized. Unfortunately this is another reason the company could not succeed as he was stubborn and resistant to criticism. I have seen a number of his speakers crop up on ebay and the like being sold for a fraction of the original price as most owners simply cannot live with a speaker that sounds so bad. Green mountain Audio never enjoyed big success and now that they’ve gone, they will be forgotten forever, (except for the fanatics and eccentrics.)
I totally agree I find most Wilson's bright anywhere that I've heard them.
Why is this forum such a magnet to controversy?

Humans mean-mouthing humans over stereos, really? It’s a stereo. You’d insult and fight with someone over a stereo?

What a charmed life some of you must live for this forum to be place you feel you need to draw a line in the sand. 

It’s not cool, it’s as broke as a joke.