Which is the Better Tonearm - Pro-Ject or Rega?


Which is the better arm in your opinion, the Rega 251/202 arm that's also found on the Rega clones (Edwards Audio TT1 for example), or the Pro-Ject arm found on the Debut/Essential and Pro-Ject clones (such as the Music Hall MMF 2.2).

Does Pro-Ject's carbon arm (as found on the Debut Carbon) change your position on the comparison?

Thanks!
seadweller
The Audiomods Classic (which uses the Rega 303 arm tube) is better than either. A UK arm handmade by a designer and master machinist, whose website will tell you all about the design.
agreed.
To answer the OP's question, the Rega arm is better than the Pro-Ject arm.

The Rega arms are hard to beat for the money.
If I may, can you expand upon why the Rega arm is better than the pro ject arm?  I'm doing a bit of browsing and research on both for a new TT and curious about this topic as well.
You didn't ask, but I can tell you what makes the Audiomods arm so good (especially for the price). Jeff installs internal arm tube stiffeners to get rid of the resonance peaks of the tube of the best Rega arm, also drilling small holes in it in a carefully arranged pattern, also to remove resonances, replaces the steel ball bearings with ceramic ones for lower noise and friction, machines a new one-piece yoke and bearing housing, adjusting the bearings for far lower play than even the best Rega, installs a damped counterweight of his own design, rewires the arm with either Cardas copper or pure silver wire, machines a new height-adjusting turntable mount, with an optional micrometer offered for ultra-fine on-the-fly VTA/SRA adjustment. And there are others! More details on the Audiomods website. The best buy in pickup arms.
I have one and it is great.Makes wonderful music with my denon103r
I am sure the OP is not interested in a $1K+ modded arm.  Going back to comparing the Pro-ject and Rega arms, I have used both types.  The Rega is longer and should have lower tracking error.  The Pro-ject antiskate setup is not that great but then you have no VTA adjustment on the Rega unless you buy shims or custom VTA adjusters for extra $.  Both are a pain when it comes to aligning/swapping carts due to fixed headshells.  If you are considering turntables rather than arms alone, the Pro-jects are a better value for the money.  The Rega TTs are a bit pricey for what they are more so if you need to add a speed control box.  Avoid Edwards TT stuff.
The Rega arms are cast alloy - compared to other arms they are very stiff and by comparison to other materials they are more acoustically inert - that's what makes them better than other arms.

Arms that use alloy or composite tubes, are not as stiff and can be acoustically active (they vibrate)

Jeff at Audiomods has taken the Rega arm tube further and  found a way to make them even stiffer with internal bracing and improved the acoustic damping by drilling holes.

The Audiomods arms only use the Rega arm tube - everything else is all Jeff's design and fabrication.

For the price, they are a great upgrade to a stock Rega arm and mkae a significant difference.

Regards...
Ok, as an engineer, I feel obliged to chime in.  Castings are cheaper than bar or tubing.  Tubing and bar, forged or rolled, have more uniform density than castings. Even if the most advanced casting technics are used, you will still have some internal casting issues, it's the nature of the beast. So maybe Rega uses cast pieces for economic reasons.  Let's not fall for the marketing fluff about castings being more rigid and acoustically inert and all that stuff.  I am willing to bet this claim has never been substantiated. 

Rotarius - here's a link that explains some of the advantages of casting. Granted, it talks to steel, but wouldn't the same be true of any metal?

http://www.afsinc.org/content.cfm?ItemNumber=6931

One valid point about casting...
"It puts the metal where it is needed"

Here's another link that measures attributes of the Rega 301 arm against other arms...

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/70-tests/104-arm-tests.html

Also a quote from Wikipedia...
"which has a now tapered cast alloy tube[22] that offered greater rigidity and better control of resonance"  

As for your statement...
"So maybe Rega uses cast pieces for economic reasons"  

It took them over two years of R & D to get it right -  "economic reasons" - I doubt it.

What you say may have some merit, but I think Rega's reputation and track record carries more weight than your conjecture.

Regards...
but I think Rega's reputation and track record carries more weight than your conjecture.

+1
Williewonka, that link talks about weldments and welded joints etc.  Please, this is not relevant to the topic at hand.  I design pressure vessels for a living, I know my materials as well as the quality of castings coming out of China (we buy by the boatload).  I am not going to  argue about elementary material science on an audio forum....believe what you must.  I am out.
Seadweller - 

I am on my 3rd ProJect table and currently have the latest incarnation of the carbon 9cc evolution.

Some of its positive virtues are:
- Rock solid bearings without any slop at all
- Tracks exceptionally well
-Setting up VTA is simple and straight forward
-Simple to adjust perfect channel bias (verified w/ test record)
- Achieves ideal LF resonance range (also verified w/ test record)
- Can typically set up a cartridge perfectly in under 30 minutes (with caveat for anti skate noted below)
- Comes w/ 3 weights to accommodate any cartridge and the included scale is within .05g as compared with a digital force gauge
- stock wiring is pretty good (caveats below)

Some of the negatives
- The tonearm lift and arm wand rest are pretty cheap
- The anti-skate post (fishing tackle) only offers 3 settings so I've always generally set them up w/ too little than too much
- Unless purchased with as a bundle with a table, seems a little expensive for what it is.
- Wiring lugs are very very soft and delicate (common)

After looking up the audiomods tonearm after following this thread, I do like the idea of having the micron adjustment for VTA and it might be fun to put one together from kit.  That said, after reading a 6moons review I personally don't see it as an upgrade (most notably the bearing slop noted).

Take care

Greg
Greg - a comment on the  the Audiomods review by 6Moons - it  was completed in 2012 - Jeff (Audiomods) appears to have taken note of comments from that review - the more recent  arms now come with much better ceramic bearings :-)

I have the Series II with the new ceramic bearing and I cannot detect any "bearing slop" as noted in the review.

Regards...
williewonka - Thanks for pointing that out - Good to know.

Either way the arm seems a bargain now particularly with the recent drop in GBP versus USD - Just might build one up from kit just for the fun of it.

Thanks again

Greg
Greg - even if you don't try the Audiomods Arm - give the KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony RCA's a try on your Project 9cc

They will elevate it to a whole new level of performance

Fightin words you say? Take a look at...
http://image99.net/blog/files/cf662af46f47abf6d812010ad97da98e-49.html
http://image99.net/blog/files/1621fffaa60c22b5f8210f57d628f961-58.html
http://image99.net/blog/files/a8494e8645dea3d750d109f819103099-61.html

I've been fortunate to be able to review most of the KLE Innovations product line over a 2-3 year period (nice being retired) and have even field tested some of them on friends systems.

To date I have not found a product that outperforms their TOTL products. But even their entry level products outperform many big name brands 

And if I didn't have already have the Audiomods arm - I'd take advantage of they weak pound also :-)

Regards, Steve. 
@gregkohanmim If you build the Audiomods arm, please tell us your results. That looks like a really intriguing arm and great value. Thanks,
Spencer

Rega vs ProJect ??

You must be kidding.  Roy Gandy is an opportunist who can't hear. 

No VTA adjustment is the donkey kong of mistakes.  I need VTA OTF, so

I guess I should measure shims or mats to the micron.  That's a great

idea, and convenient too!!! 

Maybe his friend Jeff Dorgay (likes to destroy innocent Technics toys for

the needy) should help him design a VTA adjustment.  I know that's a

monumental task, but hang in there.  You are the little train that could.

What this industry really needs is a good $0.05 cigar.  BTW, the best

tobacco in the whole wide world is grown in the USA.

I have a better idea.  Lets tax the victims of addiction.  That way we can

raise moola without taking from the rich.

"Fleib- sorry, your provocative post, though oozing with sarcasm, clearly missed it's mark. Instead of answering the op's question, your confrontational style proves to be an immediate turn-off. Is it really necessary to insult people to make your point or is this just your style? I'm sure your "expertise" as regards turntables is irreproachable, (" no VTA is the donkey kong of mistakes") but not everyone needs VTA; many manage without it just fine. I am one of them. I also own a Rega table which I love; in fact I sold my TW Acustic Raven One and purchased an RP6 which gives me every bit as much pleasure as the Raven with a lot less hassle and expense. Not to be overly dogmatic here, but people come to this hobby for many different reasons and each derives pleasure in their own way. No one needs to be told that your way is the "right way".

And, by the way, if we want your opinions on cigars and addiction, I doubt we'll look for it on the forum.

Was Donkey Kong a mistake?
Rega arm no azimuth adjustment....booooo!
Not all carts are made alike and not all stylus are made perfectly. High end carts with microline, line contact, shibata types require azimuth to dial them in as best as possible.
Also you want the option to minimize crosstalk. 

So u know my choice.