Speakers closer to the wall or speakers moved to an adjacent wall, and then moved around untill you find the best bass... Dance with them while they're playing bass-heavy material and set them down where you hear the most bass. I think it's a room problem... not an equipment problem. You need to optimize their placement in the room, though in some rooms it may be a futile exercise. Maybe removing some of the room treatments -- or shifting them around...?
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Just guessing: if you have the speakers on the short 10-foot wall, it will result in all kinds of bass dips and peaks. And I think side-firing woofers are harder to work with than other types. If you can situate the speakers on the long wall, I'd try that. Maybe set them up for relatively nearfield listening. I think that narrow room may pose a problem (also with the 20-foot dimension being an exact multiple of the 10-foot wall). It could be that no speakers will sound right in that room.
I'd fool around with the placement as I mentioned earlier, and if you can't get a decent result, you may need to use electronic equalization to get what you're looking for.
In a room like that, it could be that the stronger the system is in the low bass and the deeper it extends, the more room problems will become apparent. So merely going to more bass-prominent speakers could hurt more than it helps.
When I looked at houses with my wife, I found that the majority of homes we saw did not have even one decent room for sound reproduction. Builders/designers don't normally consider "room acoustics," unforutnately.
Agree with audiofeil. 8" woofers won't move enough air to reproduce lower octaves with aplomb. If this is what you're after, go for at least a 10 if not 12" woofer. I don't know what kind of midbass driver this speaker has but 8" is also too big to reproduce midbass optimally if it's pulling double duty.
This recommendation is not found in the usuall realm of tweaks but works : Replacing all the steel screws/bolts on your speakers with solid brass using a torque driver to deliver precise hand pounds of pressure to tighten up the brass. Virtual Dynamics , a Hi-End cable Co. from Canada , has a series entitiled "The Oddophile" running on AG, w/ Episodes detailing the "how to" to this tweak, as well as other speaker tweaks. The brass tweak cost about a hundred bucks, but that was because I purchased several types of hi-quality brass from a commerical distributor that only sold in bulk. The Wheeler Torque Wrench only cost $45.15 via the internet delivered.
The difference is night & day in terms of bass & resolution. Check out the video's on Audiogon. You just might try their tweaks for speakers as I have. Best money that I've spent on speakers in quite a while. This tweak may resolve your bass problem at its source - the speaker itself. All the best.
There is no magic in the Virtual Dymanics tweak that is suddenly going to overcome the laws of physics and give you bass from your Blues speakers that reproduce bass only to 45Hz.
Ziggy333a, you need speakers that go down lower than 45Hz to hear the bass you desire.
PS - I have an "as new" Wheeler Torque wrench available for purchase if anyone wants it.
Tvad : That is true. From your perspective a change in speakers is in order.
What the change-out from steel to brass did was to restructure the musical presentation giving different perspective as to bass content. The "Oddophile" video provides an explanation that appears reasonable. And ,yes, my speakers go considerably lower than the blues , and if the appearence of deepness is what's required of course any number of speakers can fit that bill for a price.
The difference that tickeled my ears following the change-out was the bass appeated be more distinct w/ greater realism. Since my speakers go into the teens , perhaps my perspective is reflective of that fact. However, the video does make mention the tweak works on a whole range of speakers $500-$45K.
As for the offer to sell with the torque wrench , I would scarf it up but I have a Wheeler FAT Wrench. What a great tool if only to re-tighten the screws/bolts on speakers and audio gear & lots of other stuff . I have a feeling priced right it could sell quickly.
Agree with Bill. Change the speakers. By lower mid bass I take it you mean kick drum (rather than a subwoofer) is your main need. If you want to go serious then get something with at least a 10 or 12" woofer (I would add to check the voice coil size and that 3 inch is a minimum) - someone mentioned JBL for example. FWIW-bass is generally best in a sealed box until you get into very large speakers.
Large pro speakers use reflex ports to get higher efficiency by putting a bigger drive motor in the same size box whilst most smallish speakers use the port to get bass extension. Usually ported bass extension results in some loss in bass clarity or a tendency towards "one-note" bass (it is a trade off that is well worthwhile for the better WAF factor of small speakers). There are some excellent transmission line designs by PMC. Dynaudios are also pretty good - even their smaller woofers in their Appolito designs can move some serious air. Again I assume (and I could be wrong) that you want that room loading punchy feeling you get from a kick drum rather than just a boomy powerful lower mid bass. Perhaps you could give more color to your needs - for example what have you heard that made you feel you were missing lower mid bass?
Good link. I did not read the entire thread but I realize that I do share your views about the terrible amounts of distortion from typical bass in both subwoofers and most speakers. This is why I recommend large woofers with large motors with large diameter voice coils working with a short coil in a large magnetic gap (the most linear type of woofer). I did not mention it above but the vast majority of woofers are the lower cost small diameter long voice coil in a short gap and which means they are pretty much non linear over their entire operating range and resulting in highish amounts of IMD distortion and harmonic distortion.
However, I think this goes far beyond the simple request of Ziggy and don't want to divert us from that goal but nevertheless I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Use of subwoofer is a good idea. One of the way to build a good sounding system is the employment of subwoofer. But still there is a problem: integration into system, which already has coloration which the owner do not like. That is a difficult task for most people. In general, I think, that most home systems are just sounding crap. Especially, if one takes into the cost of the system. Most people following the fashion of particularisation through building up the system from specialised and dedicated pieces. It is just extremely difficult to build up a naturally sounding system. Most so called high-end systems have a very owner specific coloration, with which the owner itself is not completely happy. Hence the constant changes. My personal experience is that the best way to avoid the possible merry-go-round is to go for as simple system as possible. In this term, given the extreme importance of loudspeaker-amplifier link, the best way is an active loudspeaker. It is just amazing how easier to get right the sound of with an active loudspeaker, and how much once that is right you can get rid off spending on such complementary colouring things like cables, etc.
Dear Shardone/Ajahu: I'm with both of you about active speakers, I like the whole idea. I never own/owned active speakers but in some ways I was on part of that concept when I was triamp/tetraamp my speakers.
The active subwoofers integration in full stereo way is part of that active speaker concept that has several advantages: almost no cables and each amplifier/speaker driver specifically matched for its own each driver characteristics are two subjects in active systems that means lower distortions that a non-active speaker can/could match, lower distortions means more " music " and means a step further on the music enjoyment.
I know we can go on on the active speaker concept, I heard some systems about: ATC, Pass, Meridian, etc, etc . each one sounds different and like always room/system dependent.
Over the years I try to go lowering my audio system's distortions ( any kind/everywhere ) and I like what I have even with more distortions/colorations that in a full active system but nothing is perfect and all of us have to make some system performance choices that means: trade-offs, I think that my overall trade-offs put me near to the music.
I love the active speaker concept but what I heard through the ones I name here are good alternatives but don't fulfill my quality system performance priorities.
IMHO, I think that the concept on active speakers is a great one but it is more easy to " accept/like " in subwoofers than in other frequency ranges where all of us are more sensitive and where belongs our music-sound reproduction priorities because it is not only that the driver/amplifier is totally matched but that that driver and that amplifier meet our individual/subjective expectatives and this issue ( I think ) is ( between other things ) what till today preclude a more " normal/massive " marketing on that active speakers where you not only " married " with a speaker but with an amplifier too.
+++++ " One of the way to build a good sounding system is the employment of subwoofer. But still there is a problem: integration into system.... " +++++
Ajahu, IMHO nothing comes for free: we have to make our job and yes I agree it is a hard work and not an easy one: I take several months before the subwoofers integration in my system goes seamless but it is worht of it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. To start I'll first work on placement of the Blues. If that doesn't help a subwoofer would definitely be considered. Onhwy61 wanted to know the placement of my equipment. On the 10ft.wall centered is all the components on their own target wall mounted shelves. Under each component are 2in. maple platforms. The Pass amp sits on a 2in maple platform with brass footers sitting right on the carpeted floor. My Blues are positioned 32in. from the short 10ft wall(same wall as my components) to the rear of the speakers. The side mounted woofers are facing outward about 16in. from the long 20ft side walls. I hope I explained that well. Shadorne actually nailed it on the head what sound I'm looking for. Its not the boomy bass but the fast,punchy bass. An example is Paul McCartney's bass guitar work on alot of later recorded beatles albums. Or the drummers bass drum kicker. Again thanks Ziggy
In the past couple days I've been playing around with speakers location in my room. I have to leave them on the short wall,
but with moving the woofers a little closer to the long wall(about 3or 4 inches) and turning them inward seemed to help a little.
But the big improvement came when I installed an Acoustic Zen Tsunami PC that I had ordered, and put on my Pass Xono preamp. I noticed a huge improvement when I put on the Beatles Sgt Pepper. Paul' Bass riffs were much more present than before. I also plan on upgrading the umbilical cord on the XONO.
I wpuld try moving them out to the middle of the room but close to the side walls, toed in quite a bit and move your listening position closer to the rear wall. You can then adjust your bass and imaging by moving backwards and forwards, back for more bass and more centerfill on multimiked recordings and forward for less boom and more envelopement on stereo miked recordings. I know I'm mixing issues but that's what you'll find. You'll be amazed at the added depth and you can totally taylor your bass response and room nodes with your listening position.
In addition to the excellent suggestions you're trying now, here's one more.
Read this thread. The simple tonearm mod explained there:
- was specifically designed for OL and Rega arms,
- was specifically designed for Shelter, Denon and similar, low compliance cartridges and,
- confers a major improvement in the strength of bass and dynamics.
Dozens of people have tried this mod since it was developed in 2003. The results have been univerally positive. My own OL Silver became a giant killer arm. With this mod it outplayed a $3K Graham 2.2 and at least matched my $4K TriPlanar for bass clarity and strength, using the same Shelter cartridge on all three arms.
All it takes is $5 and an hour's time. Given your stated goals, I can't recommend this mod highly enough.