Which band IS really America's Greatest (rock & roll band)?

@slaw---Yup, I watched the whole season of Cadillac Records, and was surprised it wasn't renewed for a second one. You can sure tell Martin Scorsese was involved, can't ya?! It really captures the New York attitude and energy, and the personality traits of people in the record and music business.

I had some issues with it in historical terms (just as I did with the TV movie Grace Of My Heart, a story about Phil Spector, Brian Wilson, and some other real life people, but done in a convoluted, mixed up way), but it was meant to be entertainment, not a documentary.

@n80, you misunderstand. My critique of Manzarek is not in terms of him not being a virtuoso (I don’t judge musicians by that yardstick), but by his musical ideas. The musical parts the other organists I named came up with don’t take virtuosity to play, but rather good musical instincts and ideas. Their song parts display that talent, one which Manzarek, imo, did not possess. Just my opinion, as I said. The Band’s pianist/singer Richard Manuel was not an accomplished drummer with chops, but his drum parts on The Band songs he played on are fantastic! His drum parts are musically brilliant, serving the interests of the song rather than his ego. THAT’S what makes for a superior musician. Matthew Fisher's organ part in Procol Harum's "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" is SO great, but not hard to play; no virtuosity required, but rather great musical ideas.

About my comments of Aerosmith copying The Stones, of course all musicians start out emulating those who came before them. But The Stones took the music of the Blues and Rock ’n’ Roll artists they most loved and made it their own. They didn’t set out to "become" Muddy Waters or Chuck Berry. The best musicians (not necessarily virtuosos) trace the music back to it’s roots, drawing on it’s originators. To use a contemporary band as your template, to not go back in time to explore the source and inspiration of their work, is what I object to. Rather than imitate The Stones, Aerosmith "should" have studied the same artists The Stones did, and create their own version of that music (as The Stones did), not setting their sights on "becoming" The Stones. That’s called a tribute band! You’re free to disagree, of course, but that’s what good musicians do, and is what makes a band a good one. Aerosmith is not a good band, and are actually considered a joke by the good ones. Honest!

You know who else didn’t think much of the doors (The Who, as well)? Jerry Garcia. But then, he was as much an opinionated *ssh*le as am I ;-) .

Exactly slaw, Rock. The two are used interchangeably, as if they mean the same thing. They obviously do to younger dudes, but not to me. Here’s how I differentiate between the two:

Rock ’n’ Roll, or Rock & Roll, or Rock and Roll, is the combination of the music southern blacks were making after the end of WWII (Jump Blues, Rural Blues, Rhythm & Blues, Gospel), combined with the music southern whites were making at the same time (Hillbilly, Bluegrass, Country, Gospel). It sounds "southern", rural. That’s an over-simplification, as Big Joe Turner’s (out of Kansas City) "Shake, Rattle, & Roll" (from 1954, a year before Elvis Presley’s 1st Sun single) is very much Rock ’n’ Roll, and it contains no strains of "white" music. Same with the music of Little Richard and some other southern blacks.

But the black artists were being played only on stations catering to the ’Race" market. Sun Records owner/recording engineer Sam Phillips was recording black artists in the Memphis area for that market, including the great Howlin’ Wolf. What a voice! You’ve probably heard "Smokestack Lightning" (The Yardbirds did it), but not like Wolf sings it! Sam was quoted as saying "If I could find a white man with the black feel, I’d make a million dollars". Elvis Presley walked into Sun Records in 1954, and the world was about to change. By the way, it was because Rock ’n’ Roll was a mix of black and white that it was at first banned in the southern states. "We ain’t havin’ our white kids listenin’ to no n*gg*r music", was the attitude.

I wasn’t yet old enough to hear that original 1950’s Rock ’n’ Roll on the radio, but I DID hear Chuck Berry, The Everly Brothers, Roy Orbison, etc., whose music was sure Rock ’n’ Roll (R & R without Chuck Berry’s guitar playing? No way!), in the early 60’s. I was introduced to a lot of 50’s music by the British Invasion groups, who WERE old enough to have heard it at the time of it’s release. One of those groups was of course The Rolling Stones, whose music was much more informed by black music than by white. The same is true of The Animals, The Yardbirds, and some other BI groups. It was the elimination, or at least minimization, of the southern white influence in the music of those bands that created what I think of as Rock. It is much more Blues based than anything else; very little of the Hillbilly influence heard in 1950’s Rock ’n’ Roll. Also, Rock 'n' Roll has a hint of "swing' in it, the shuffle rhythm heard in some Blues and a lot of Country. Rock music is largely devoid of the swing/shuffle feel, every note having the same time value (musician's and listener's schooled in music theory know what that means). 

Now here’s something I find amusing: One of the musical movements taking place largely under the radar in the late 60’s was the reintroduction of Hillbilly/Bluegrass/Country into Rock music (Dylan, The Band, The Byrds, others), music which was then referred to as Country Rock. See the humor in that?!

I saw a quote from Steven Tyler, saying their (he and the other Aerosmith members) ambition was to become The Rolling Stones. Who else finds that quite a pathetic admission? Isn’t to take the same influences and become your own version of it, rather than a copy of The Stone’s version, a much more noble and dignified ambition? I DO have to admit, though, they certainly achieved their modest goal. Embarrassing.

All right slaw, I didn't want to be the one to say it, but now that you have ;-). I too saw the doors (they made a point of using all lower case in their name, perhaps as a conceit a la e.e. cummings ;-), twice. Not only were they not a Rock 'n' Roll band (if the term Rock 'n' Roll is to have ANY meaning), they weren't a very good band in whatever genre you want to name. Of course, that's just my opinion, and as they, everyone's got one.

John Densmore was an okay drummer, and some like Robby Krieger's guitar playing; I just don't happen to be one of them. But Ray Manzarek was a lame organist, really bad. Listen to him back-to-back with Garth Hudson (The Band, of course), Booker T. Jones, Matthew Fisher (Procol Harum), Lee Michaels, Al Kooper, Greg Allman, Felix Cavaliere (The Rascals), or Steve Winwood. The sound of his Farfisa organ was so cheesy, just laughably bad. No soul, no feel, no expression, no swing---really "white". The notes in his solos don't stray far from the tonic, those solos being what musicians call pedestrian. Boring. And since the organ was so integral to the doors sound and style, that's a fatal flaw. And then there is the matter of Jim Morrison's voice and lyrics, but I won't go there.

Now, for a real Rock 'n' Roll band with a very interesting keyboardist (Terry Adams on piano and clavinet), great guitarist/songwriter (Al Anderson), superb bassist (Joey Spampinato. Invited by Keith Richards to replace Bill Wyman in The Stones, he declined, preferring to remain in this band), and drummer (the late Tom Ardolino, a drummer with as big a sense of humor as Keith Moon), give a listen to NRBQ. And my gawd did they rock live!

Big Joe Turner’s "Shake, Rattle, and Roll" came out in 1954, and is a perfect example of actual Rock ’n’ Roll music that at the time of it’s release was not being marketed as such. The reason obviously being, Joe was a black man, and the U.S.A. was a segregated country. The music of almost all black artists/entertainers was made for radio stations that played Race music, as it was called. White artists routinely covered songs by black singers (as Bill Haley did to Big Joe’s "S, R, & R"), and their versions were marketed to whites, on both radio and the new medium on television.

Well, that didn’t prevent Southern whites from tuning in to the radio shows playing Race music, and then buying the records (78’s, then 45’s). Sun Record’s owner/recording engineer Sam Phillips had been recording black artists (the great Howlin’ Wolf, to name one) for the Race market, and knew there was a hunger for that music amongst white teenagers. Hence the well known quote attributed to him: "If I could find a white man with the black feel, I’d make a million bucks". In walked Elvis Presley!

Elvis (and Jerry Lee, Buddy Holly, Johnny Burnette, Carl Perkins, etc.) listened to both The Grand Old Opry and the stations playing black music, and combined the two to create the original white Rock ’n’ Roll, Rockabilly. Elvis’ five Sun singles contained a Blues/R&B-based song on one side, and a Hillbilly on the other. Elvis was so Hillbilly his original band contained no drummer. Why? Drums were not allowed on the stage of The Grand Old Opry! When it was discovered he was white (he was originally assumed to be black, sounding as he did and being on Sun Records), he was given the nickname "The Hillbilly Cat". Cat was the term used at the time for black musicians.

Much of the music discussed here on Audiogon is that of, or descended from, the 1960’s. Yet if you read what many of the artists making that music have said, it is the music of the 1950’s they like most. Ask Jeff Beck. Ask John Lennon (well.....). When music got SO bad in the 1970’s (Progressive, Hard Rock/Metal, Disco, etc.), many 1960’s generation Rock ’n’ Roll musicians started looking back for inspiration, at the music from before their time. What they discovered was Jump Blues, Country Blues (very different from the urban strain), Rockabilly, Hillbilly (The Carter Family onward), Bluegrass, and other Roots musics. When Dylan brought The Hawks up to Woodstock, it was that music he and they mined to create their new music. The current Americana artists continue to do the same. Dylan has said that, though it is with the 1960’s he is identified, it is the music of the 1950’s and earlier with which he identifies.

Damn initforthemusic, that’s quite a lot of favorites you got there! You must have gone through your record collection, taking notes ;-) .

Some of your nominees have a special meaning to me. The Chocolate Watchband were local San Jose heroes when I was a kid, and I saw them live many times. Even closer to me, their original lineup included Jo Kemling on Vox Continental organ and Rich Young on bass. I auditioned for a group that was forming in the Spring of ’65, that group consisting of Jo and Rich, along with Jo’s younger brother Chuck, whom I went to school with. Chuck and I were Freshman at Cupertino High, Jo and Rich were at Foothill College. I and another drummer auditioned, and I was chosen. That other drummer was Pete Curry, who now plays bass (he also plays guitar, and is a working recording engineer) in Los Straitjackets.

We worked up a set of British Invasion covers (I was assigned the task of singing "Help") and were about to start playing out when The Watchband, also just forming, stole away Jo and Rich! So ended my first band-to-be. The Watchband also stole their drummer Gary Andrijasevich from a Cupertino Frat Band named The Squyers, and I ended up being Gary’s replacement in that band for about a year, playing teen dances at High Schools, youth clubs, etc. Lots of Chuck Berry, Paul Revere & The Raiders, The Animals, Surf, etc. songs.

Gary Andrijasevich was also at Cupertino High, but a couple years ahead of Chuck and I. On the day of The Watchband’s first live show in the Summer of ’65, Gary became ill. Pete Curry subbed for him (with no rehearsal), doing a fine job. The Watchband played around the Bay Area for a few years, and can be seen in the Roger Corman teen exploitation movie Riot On Sunset Strip, doing their shameless Rolling Stones imitation. When they broke up (around the end of ’67, I believe), Andrijasevich and Watchband lead guitarist Mark Loomis started another band, named The Electric Tingle Guild. I saw them live only once, and they were great, doing all originals. MUCH better than The Watchband.

Say, being as you obviously are into Garage, are you hip to The Lyres? My favorite in that genre, a great live band. I saw The Sonics in L.A. not that long ago (they have reformed, with three original members). Not as good live as The Lyres, but their records are killer!

In the 1960’s and 70’s, self-contained musical organizations (those that wrote, sang, and played the music on recordings) were called groups, not bands. The term band for many years referred to the musicians who backed up a singer, i.e. (Springsteen’s) The E Street Band and (Tom Petty’s) The Heartbreakers. The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Yardbirds, Who, Zeppelin, etc. were groups, while Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin, Roy Orbison, Joe Cocker, and more contemporaneously Joan Osborne, Lucinda Williams, Buddy Miller, Emmylou Harris, and other singers had/have a band. Two very different things, their talents assessed very differently.

A musical organization can function in both capacities, as did The Band. The were a great group, but also a great (oy) band. Compare their abilities as a band for Bob Dylan vs. The Dead’s abilities at same. One of them is a MUCH better band in that sense. The Dead may have been, depending on one’s taste, a great group, but they weren’t even close to being a good band. The Dylan & The Dead live album is absolutely unlistenable. IMO, of course. Go ahead, compare it to the Dylan/Band Before The Flood live recordings. A world of difference.

Recording bands are arguably the most talented of them all---just listen to The Swampers, the Muscle Shoals band on the recordings of Aretha, Wilson Pickett, Percy Sledge (the playing on "When A Man Loves A Woman" is musicianship at it’s absolute finest!), The Staple Singers, Steve Winwood, Paul Simon, Rod Stewart, Joe Cocker, Bob Seger, Cat Stevens, Joe Tex, Duane Allman, Boz Scaggs, Glen Frey, J.J. Cale, John Prine, even the damn Rolling Stones, and thousands of others. Another is Booker T & The MG’s, who were also a much better backing band for Dylan than were The Dead. The Heartbreakers also served as Dylan’s band on one tour, with only barely passable results. Another good group/mediocre band.

@djones, there have been a few different NRBQ lineups. The one on the 1st album (on Columbia Records, where they back the great Carl Perkins) reminds me somewhat of the first version of Springsteen's E Street Band---a little weak (though not as bad. Springsteen's first drummer was terrible). The eclectic vision is there, but it's not quite realized.

Pianist/leader Terry Adams and bassist Joey Spampinato then enlisted drummer Tom Ardolino and guitarist/singer Al Anderson for the band's classic, decades-long lineup. They made a lot of albums on Rounder Records, and established themselves as one of America's great Rock 'n' Roll bands. Fans of theirs include Elvis Costello, Bonnie Raitt, Nick Lowe, Dave Edmunds, and every good musician I know.

Their influences include Rock 'n' Roll, Rockabilly, Jazz (Sun Ra in particular), Blues, Hillbilly, Show tunes, Pop---just about all strains of American music. There live shows were wild, unbelievable explosions of kinetic energy, amongst the best I've ever witnessed. And I saw The Who with Keith Moon twice!

For those who want to understand why some people continue to include The Band in their list of the greatest American Rock 'n' Roll bands (in spite of the fact that they were 4/5ths Canadian. The music they made, however, was purely American, far more so than most literally American Rock 'n' Roll bands, many of whom display more British than American influences), if not THE greatest, there is a new publication that will help you in that endeavor.

It is a 122 page special-edition magazine published by the excellent UK "Uncut" organization, and is entitled "The Ultimate Guide To Bob Dylan & The Band". Dylan is included in the stories, but only in terms of his interaction with The Band (in his employment of them in live performances, and of course from their collaboration on the Basement Tapes), rather than on his own. The bulk of the stories are about The Band themselves---their entire history, their recordings, their relationships, substance abuse, everything. I got my copy just yesterday, and I have already learned a fair amount of information I had been unaware of, and I know a LOT about The Band. A must read!

@n80, if your comment was made in regard to the names I mentioned (it may not have been), I named the band, then gave details about it’s members. Bands have members, right? ;-)

If The Band is eligible, what makes them SO unique is that they are a self-contained "unit" (writing their songs, singing them, and playing the instruments) that is at least as good as any band hired by solo artists for accompaniment. If you are "just" a backing band that provides accompaniment for a solo artist, you have to be a REALLY good band. Rock 'n' Roll bands are known for their songs, sound, and/or style, not necessarily for their excellence as a performing band, in the old sense of the term. For instance, The Heartbreakers made excellent music, but provided poor accompaniment for Bob Dylan. Not as bad as The Dead, of course ;-). On the other hand, The Band were an excellent band in the sense I am speaking of, as good as any group of studio musicians, many of them the best in the world. 

If you want to go way back and talk about all-time best:

- The Tympani Five (Louis Jordan’s band). Jordan is considered the father of Rock ’n’ Roll, though that credit could also go to Big Joe Turner.

- Little Richard’s recording band. Unbelievably great, including the best drummer in the entire history of Rock ’n’ Roll, Earl Palmer.

- Chuck Berry’s band---Johnnie Johnson on piano, Willie Dixon on upright bass, and various drummers.

- Scotty, Bill, and D.J. Fontana, Elvis’ original band (Sun Records, early RCA).

- The Crickets (Buddy Holly’s band). Listen to his and their recording of "Down The Line" for some blistering hot R & R.

- The Rock ’n’ Roll Trio (Johnny and Dorsey Burnett plus Paul Burlinson---Jeff Beck’s idol---on Telecaster). Their "Train Kept A-Rollin’" is just too cool to believe.

- The band that recorded with The Everly Brothers, which included guitarist Hank Garland and drummer Buddy Harman, two of the best musicians I’ve ever heard.

Now THAT is what I consider Rock & Roll.

The Stones are American?! The Four Seasons were a Rock & Roll band?! Ay carumba!

I would say Los Lobos are in the running, and The Blasters, though they are on the border where Rock & Roll and Blues overlap.