When is it time to consider adding a SUT?

Dear @billstevenson : No it's not. For the contrary it's a good music/audio conversation.

@lewm posted: "  Raul and I are more often than not on opposite sides of controversies like this one . " and you posted:

"  it can be worthwhile to discuss matters of mutual interest even if our diverse backgrounds prevent full accord .... "

I think that mature audiophiles as us in reality are more in agreements than against each to other even when we do not have a full accord. As a fact what makes  an audio conversation a good one is precesily when exist no full accord because it's when the different " sides " of the whole conversation works as a lesson for any one of us and is the only way to grow up. Obviously that the people involved in that conversation must have the attitude to always learn.
Some times in a hot audio conversation and when I think that the other gentleman has no " reason " on the subject time latter ( days, months or even years after. ) I take in count that that gentleman was rigth and me wrong.

""" 
we can agree that faithfulness to a spcification such as, but not limited to, the RIAA equalization curve would be sine qua non to achieving reasonable sound reproduction """

not only agree but for me this is the first target and characteristic between a preamplifier/headamp or the like and a phono stage where when we read or some one talks about phono stage the name really comes because that audio item has the inverse RIAA eq. and not because its gain level or something else.

You mentioned the second and third targets in a phono stage where both depends in between: gain/amp levels and noise levels.
So we are talking the same audio language, good.

"  You argue to strive for reproduced sound that is comparable to live music "

well, I said that my reference as your is live MUSIC. What means that reference for me?  to know in precise way how and which is the kind of sound that produce the normal music instruments and to know it not only in different kind of enviroments ( orchestra halls, open stages, amplified or not, etc, etc. ) but at near field too with single instruments or blended..

I agree in your comments about and could add that even two same Steinway piano models in the same venue sounds different because can be that have different build material chords ( vintage. ) or something with the piano differences in the build wood or paint and the like. Exist no two same year Stradivarious with exactly the same sound.
Again, in agree that is imposible to mimic live MUSIC through a home audio system.

Now, I posted several times that my audio system main target is to be truer to the recording or at least nearest to.

For my effort trying to approach and have success in that target I need that at every single link in the audio system chain be faithfulness developing the lowest every kind of distortions ( obviously each audio link item must be a good design and with excellent quality design execution. ).

With those premises in mind and knowing in deep both technologies: tubes and SS, by first hand whole experiences I decided to left behind the tube alternative because can't fulfill my main system target. I's just imposible to do it for the tube alternative. As any alterative tubes has trade-offs but against the target are severe trade-offs insuperable limitations to achieve the  targets where SS is way nearer to acomplish it.

I don't listen MUSIC in my system only because I'm a MUSIC lover and I just like it. NO I like to listen MUSIC in my system the way SHOULD be and this " SHOULD be " means truer/nearest to the recording. This is way different to listen only because I like it what I hear even if is wrong.

We are in agreement of the critical importance role of the inverse RIAA eq in a phono stage and to be truer to the recording this inverse phono stage RIAA eq. MUST MIMIC the RIAA curve ( inverse. ) used during the recording.

What means " mimic ": exactly that, with no frequency deviations in between. Well, because its inherent tube limitations this alternative can't fulfill that premise and the SS alternative can do it in a nearest way. Yes, accuracy is always the name of the game here. Ideal could be: cero tolerance that per sé is imposible to achieve.

Of course that I'm using full SS electronics. I don't want to talk in deep about my system but only to give you a precise example where tubes can't do it and my phonolinepreamp does:


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPJLuDhIxhHGsjv2ZABr3TIpxMewVor1Pz33vhLoiISsURJmmnxUQB9cuwNnpog...

that kind of performance is near " perfect " ( nothing is. ) not only because the frequency deviation levels are lower than 0.015db ! but because both channels performs almost exactly.
Btw, you can check through Stereophile electronics measurements ( every kind of. ) and always both channels ( every kind of audio item. ) measures different, way different!

Well, that's me about MUSIC and audio.

Thank's for your answer.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @billstevenson : I never leave a question with out give an answer.

You said: "  your open answers. "

For me, in audio, exist no open answers but many times are very elaborated answers because in audio each link depends of all and each other links in the audio chain.

An open answer as : yes or not or an  item model means nothing with out an explanation of the " open " answer.

The other side is that all audio human beens  understand audio subjects in different way and that's why dialogue/discussion sometimes is useless for every one.

You posted:

 """    My solid state reference has been a Lehmann Silver Cube  """

in the same post with your " open questions " and that tell me that is probable that you and me can talk on different audio subjects.

With all respect to Lehmann and its owners and to you I think you have a very low reference line. I'm not saying is a bad reference only that could be not a real reference to discuss your questions. It's curious that been a phono stage the manufacturer specs did not shows the RIAA deviation level. Why ? could be an interesting question for you and its owners.

SC is a SS design that use in its first gain stage a microphone amp chip and in the second gain stage another chip by BB and and an output buffer with FETs. Lehmann had its own way of thinking about. I never heard it in my system but through different system.

When I talk about SS phonolinepreamp SS designs certainly I'm refereing to a different kind of designs/performance where my only reference is live music.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @billstevenson : Parry? to you?. Why should I?

My point is easy: to have a dialogue where you and me speak about " oranges " and only want to be sure about.

All of us have some misunderstood audio subjects because audio is so wider whole subject. Here we are talking of phono stage and I need to know the main targets in a phono stage from you and that's all.

If you refuse to do it could be because: you really don't want my answers on your questions or you are not to sure on my specific question or just you don't want to do it.

The " ball " is in your " field ". Shall we play?

R.

Dear @billstevenson : For to persons can have a dialogue in a subject the first premise is that both understand the subject under dialogue/discussion. That's why I posted:

"""   before that is important that you and me talk in the same " audio language ".  """

It's useles that you, me or any one give answers or make questions when one gentleman is talking of " oranges " and the other of " airplanes ".

So,  from your point of view which targets are the main ones in a phono stage .? what are we looking for in a phono stage?

You can be sure I have answers to your questions, no doubt about. 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @billstevenson : No problem because exist several facts about but before that is important that you and me talk in the same " audio language ".

All the audio items are designed to accomplish specific targets and I would like that you share from your point of view which of those item targets are the main ones in a phono stage .?

Could you, please?

Thank's in advance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @billstevenson : Well, that kind of designs exist in the market. I'm using one for some years now and outperforms not mid-level tube designs but any one .

@gtaphile :   "" not know what is missing until you try a SUT in the chain.  "

for " thousands " of years I used SUTs with either: tube and SS designs. I owned almost every SUT in the market. In those time I really did not know nothing of what " today " I learned/experienced on the SUT subject.
As a fact I still own Denon, Entré and Audiocraft SUTs. I still use it time to time, so I have past and today first hand experiences.

I can tell you that you can't miss anything through the SUT experiences against a today good active design using today bipolar devices. A SUT can't compete in anyway against today bipolar transistor. The audio signal is degraded at higher levels through a SUT than a transistor. Problem is that the audio signal in your system pass through tubes in the AR item.

Audiophiles have different kind of experiences and learn different " things " and sometimes exist misunderstood in what we learned.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.
  

Dear @taxmandme : """  Also, without the SUT in the system, I could never hear any difference by changing the load. """

That only confirm that LOMC cartridge are " non-sensitive " to impedance load changes and confirm that in this regards your AR design is a good one.
What happens when you introduce a SUT in your hybrid PS is that exist a reaction inside the PS circuit wi9th impedance/inductance and capacitance and this is a real problem and not desired for the cartridge can shows it at its best.

Good SUTs sounds good but has its own limitations on noise and distortion levels and of course limited frequency range with out deviations where a good bipolar full SS phono stage can outperform your today set up.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.