When did the Hi-Fi sound mature?

I think that Shadorne makes some very valid observations with respect to the equipment that is sold to the majority of consumers (who may have vaguely heard of Bose and believe it to be the ne plus ultra), but the answer is very different with respect to "the average Audiogon system" that you refer to.

With respect to that kind of system, I don't think it's possible to define a clear answer on a system "end to end" basis.

For digital sources I would say that today's average high-end sound began to be approached in the early to mid 90's.

For amplifiers, preamplifiers, turntables, cartridges, and speakers, I would say the early to mid 80's.

For amplifiers and preamplifiers, though, a case could be made for some of the tube designs of the 1960's. And some would even argue that a case could be made for the Western Electric theatre amplifiers of the 1930's (with modifications for home use), if horn speakers (that don't require much power) are being used.

For FM tuners, I would argue 1954, when the REL Precedent was introduced. It was a mono tuner, but usable in stereo in conjunction with separate multiplex adapters that were introduced a few years later.

Regards,
-- Al

Commcat, with all due respect, I think your position is a bit extreme, as well as being oversimplified by not differentiating between the different types of components (along the lines of what I did in my previous post in this thread).

During the 1990's, I went through a period of several years during which I bought a lot of revered 1950's and 1960's gear, used it extensively, and eventually sold most of it. My listening was to mostly high quality, simply mic'd, audiophile-oriented classical recordings, both modern ones and audiophile-calibre reissues of highly regarded older recordings.

The turntables and cartridges of that period were a joke compared to what came later. I have had, among other speakers, a pair of very large Tannoy's, the drivers from which sell today for several thousand $. A typical discerning Audiogoner would reject them in minutes, compared to good modern speakers, due to general lack of definition.

Amplifiers and preamplifiers of that period, as I indicated in my previous post, arguably are competitive with high-end designs of today, although I think that the better parts quality that is available to designers today (other than tubes) would result in their losing the competition most of the time.

I've owned good examples of the most highly revered vintage Marantz stuff (Model 1's, 2's, 7, 9's, two 10B's), as well as a lot of McIntosh, Scott, Fisher, Brook, and other highly regarded 1950's and 1960's electronics. The only piece I ended up keeping in my main system is my REL Precedent tuner, together with a Scott multiplex adapter.

Recordings themselves, which you and Shadorne have been discussing, are a another story altogether, which I won't get into here. Suffice it to say that I have no problem finding sonically enjoyable classical material from any of the decades from the 1940's to the present one.

Regards,
-- Al

1. When did quality "HiFi" first enter people's homes in reasonable numbers?

2. When did "HiFi" or full spectrum recordings become widely available?

3. When did turntable and cartridge technology achieve a moderate level of accuracy in speed, noise level and frequency range?

4. When did Solid State amplifiers finally become recognized as competitive with tube amps in terms of "HiFi" reproduction?

5. When did digital reproduction start to close in on analog in terms of that "you are there" essence (or has it in your mind)?

My earlier posts in this thread, and some of the others, partially addressed these questions, but I'll try to summarize more explicitly here:

1)1950's.

2)1950's. I believe the 33-1/3 rpm long-playing record was first introduced in 1948, in monophonic form. Stereo was introduced around 1957.

3)My opinion is ca. 1980. But certain special cases such as the Garrard 301 turntable from ca. 1957 can be singled out as being capable of providing excellent sound when well restored and used with a modern cartridge.

4)1975-1980, imo. Noteable examples include the early products of the original Mark Levinson company, designed mostly by John Curl. These were very influential with respect to subsequent high-end products. They are now very collectable, like the better tube equipment of the 50's and 60's, and go for considerable $ on eBay.

5)As I indicated earlier, my feeling is the early 1990's. Opinions will differ.

Regards,
-- Al

Re no. 4, I should also have mentioned the name of the late Tom Colangelo, who succeeded John Curl as Mark Levinson's chief designer, and was responsible for most of the "ML"-designated models.

The original company (under Mark Levinson the person) existed from 1972 to 1984, when he was forced to sell it amidst financial problems and power struggles. The terms of the sale included the provision that he could no longer use his own name on products at companies he later founded (Cello, Ltd., and currently Red Rose Music). Tom Colangelo remained with him through the Cello years.

During that 1972 to 1984 period, Mark Levinson Audio Systems (which made only solid state products) was instrumental in furthering the high-end concepts of minimalist circuit design, no tone controls, no power switch on some or all of the preamps, very high quality parts, construction that was simultaneously tank-like and beautiful to look at, and emphasis on sound quality rather than measured parameters.

I still have an ML1 preamp, and I use its phono stage (accessed via a tape out jack) into a more modern line stage preamp in my main system.

I should add, in case anyone may wonder, that I have never had any connection whatsoever to any of these people or companies.

Regards,
-- Al

Yes, that's right. I believe that John Curl designed all of the JC-designated products for both MLAS and, in recent years, for Parasound.

Regards,
-- Al

Shadorne -- Thanks!

-- Al