Yeah, I'm glad that Hussein has been finally captured, but I ain't gonna whip out "Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead" yet.
Have we forgotten? Bin Laden is really the guy we were after in the first place.
In my opinion, this has been one gigantic cluster fuck. |
As usual a topic such as this becomes a nest of false bifurcations.
The Middle East views the US with suspicion for good reason.
In the early 1950's when Iranian Premier Mussadegh was seen as a threat to our oil interests, we aided a coup to bring a US friendly ruler to power. The Shah.
After the fall of the Shah and rise of radical Muslim clerics [read anti-US] in Iran in the late 1970's. We supplied arms and chemical agents to Saddam Hussein during his eight year war with Iran. When it was in our interests we supported Mr. Saddam.
When the USSR invaded Afghanistan we came to the aid of people like Osama Bin Laden. It has been openly admitted by the head of operations in Afghanistan, that the role of the US and CIA in Afghanistan was to put the guns in the hands of the shooter and let God sort it out. Our only goal was to give the Soviets "their Vietnam".
When we rightly invaded Iraq in 1991 we stopped dead at the gates to Bagdhad, and exhorted the oppressed minority Shia and Kurdish people to rise up and overthrow Hussein WITH OUR help. When the uprising began, we abandoned these people and allowed Huusein's troops to use military means to crush the revolt which WE started.
The UN and the rest of the world has long considered Israel's incursion into the four "occupied Palestinian territories" as a breach on international law and highly illegal. The Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a signatory states that "the Occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies". Up until the Reagan administration the US was in agreement. Since then, we haven't made such claims.
The citizens of Iraq and the entire Arab World view US policies as self-serving. And when to comes to the Palestinian issue, only to the benefit of Israel. If you only watched US news you'd think Palestinian terrorists were mindless fanatics. Did you ever stop to think what might compel people in mass to resort to such means?
In the early 80's professor Talmon of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem wrote an open leter to then Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. "The combination of subjection, national oppression and social inferiority is a time bomb" for the future of Israel. Let us not compel the Arabs to feel that they have been humiliated until they believe that hope is gone and they must die for Palestine." Those are some pretty damn scary words written some twenty years ago.
Earlier this year when we finally marched into Bagdhad and their own people were tearing down statues of Saddam Hussein, we had a chance to show the world that we were there to help. We made promises that an Iraqi infrastructure with Iraqi citizens would be put in place and that all public necessities such as water, power and sanitation would be restored.
Eight months later, there are still many places without water and power. I watched on CNN during those early days when high ranking military personal and civilian experts inspecting a main power plant said all that needed to be done was some minor repair and full power could be restored because even during the shutdown it was being maintained by a skeleton crew. What happened?
We made promises that upon entering Bagdhad government offices, palaces and important places such as the Iraq National Museum would be protected from looters. Remember, all those ancient priceless artficacts that were looted, destroyed and left strewn all over a sacked museum? Why didn't we keep our promise? Incredible treasures have been lost forever.
I was absolutely in favor of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban and the capture of Al Qaida operatives, especially Osama Bin Laden. But even if all those goals are achieved, we still have the responsibility of leaving Afghanistan a peaceful, self-sufficient country. We don't have the right to invade countries on a whim and leave them destroyed and ripe for the taking by who knows who. That's how the Taliban came to power in the first place.
Afghanistan may be on the road in that direction, but Bin Laden is still at large and throughout the outskirts of the country regional chieftans [warlords] have staked out their territory and have made life increasingly dangerous for ordinary Afghani citizens. And a product of our invasion there is that the opium industry is now booming. We still have a lot left to do there.
So when GW Bush made the announcement that we were going into Iraq to get Saddam and his weapons of mass-destruction, I thought this guy had fallen off his rocker. Where was the evidence for these weapons? Didn't his dad just write in his own autobiography that an Invasion of Iraq was a very ban idea?
It seems the White House's only basis of sending troops to war is based on Iraqi exile and friend to the State Department Ahmed Chalabi word that Saddam has nukes and chemical weapons? This is a guy who's wanted by the Jordanian government for bank fraud, and now he's head of the Iraqi National Congress which we installed. Then when former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson stated that he found no evidence that Hussein was trying to obtain yellowcake Uranium in Africa, his wife Vallerie Plame was outed as a spook. Are there some vindictive people on Capital Hill?
60 Minutes reported a couple weeks ago that many of the heads of local government and some chief of police are actually ex-Saddam Hussein Baath. The US has installed the very guys that were the oppressors!
Don't get me wrong, I love the US, and I wouldn't live anywhere else. But it doesn't mean I should turn a blind eye when things go askew. When it was announced we would be invading Iraq and the plans were starting to be laid out on CNN's "War" coverage it was clear that once again the US didn't have an exit plan. No mention of rebuilding was made until the war was well under way. All I saw were diagrams of the armament an A10 Thunderbolt or the Stratego type war maps on the CCN news floor.
I saw a program earlier this year where a woman who's part of the think tank that advises the Bush administration on the Middle East replied when asked if it was worth all the risks going into Iraq, her reply was, "Well, isn't just getting Hussein out of power enough?" What??!!!!!!! It's absolutely frightening that a group of people advising the President of the United States could be so shortsighted! That kind of thinking is why the US is hated by many in the Arab world and viewed with fear by many of our own allies.
Our history in the Middle East is of doing things only for our benefit and when seemingly for altruistic reasons only half way. It amazes me that so many Iraqi citizens are still friendly to the US troops, but that may very well be a measure of their hatred for Hussein. We may be the lesser of two evils in their eyes.
Since the capture of Saddam, there's a chance the resistance forces which have been inflicting damage on US troops may lose some resolve and that the people that were still afraid to openly criticize Hussein may emerge. This is our second chance to ride the wave of good feelings among Iraqi citizens and make positive gains.
Do I think we should have gone to war in Iraq? No.
Am I glad Saddam is now sitting in a US brig? Hell ya!
But now is the time to show the world that the US can do things other than war, right. |
Yeah, I kinda have mixed feelings on this. I'm damn glad we got him and the possibly bright future for the Iraqi people it could yield if we play this out correctly.
We have to take into consideration the feelings and culture of the Iraqis though, and allow them a bigger role in constructing their "new" country. We're walking a tightrope because there are so many ethnic and religious groups to appease. Maybe we can take a cue from the Kurdish people in Northern Iraq and see how they've built a government and semi-thriving albeit western-type society.
But as we've already seen, in a land with ethnic and religious diversity and long-standing hostilities it's gonna be supremely difficult. If you placate the Shiites, you piss off the Sunnis, and don't forget about the Kurds and how the Turks just north of the border feel about them. And that's one of the reasons I was opposed to the war. I think we bit off way more than we can and care to chew. We have a history of going in and getting what we want, then leaving. I pray I'm wrong.
As for my Saddam musical request? How about some old Parlament/Funkadelic, "Shit, Goddamn, Get Off Your Ass and Jam!!!!"
Now where are we gonna find that 6' 4" wirey-bearded ex-Yemeni/Saudi, rich boy, Afghan Mujahadeen MoFo??!!!!!! |
Bmwhaus, I couldn't agree more.
I remember at the beginning of the year all the flack that the White House was taking when it was announced that Haliburton might have an inside track with post war rebuilding. Supposedly they were eliminated from the bidding, then were allowed back in, so surprise surprise when it came out that they've been over charging the whole time.
It bothers me that throughout the world and especially in Europe we're viewed as out of control cowboys because we act unilaterally, and break international trade agreements when they don't suit us. While I can understand that GW wants to protect US interests at home and abroad, his actions are isolating us from even our closest allies. Just a couple weeks ago Bush had to give in to a European and Japanese trade war threat because of the new [illegal] steel embargos he imposed.
Its interesting to speculate what could've been if we avoided this war, concentrated more on rebuilding Afghanistan, and saved some of that 85 billion for Medicare. But since we didn't, and we are where we are we can't jump ship now and skidaddle out of Mosul and Tikrit. We have a moral obligation to finish what we started, and that is the rebuilding of Iraq.
Will the terroism stop with the capture of Saddam? Dream on. But if we respect the people of Iraq, allow them to help in the rebuilding process as partners and show that we're their friends and not powerful bullies, maybe we've got a chance.
I firmly believe that the reason 9/11 happened was because of our past Middle East policies how we seem to favor Israel in almost all conflicts when it comes to the Palestinian issue. The Israelis are good people. The Palestinians are good people. But since the beginning of the 20th century when Zionism started ona a roll and the British mishandled the whole Palestine issue, the Palestinians have been humiliated, dishonored and treated as second class citizens of the Earth.
Terrorism isn't an Arab invention. It's always been used by a weaker force to combat an overwhelmingly stronger force. Remember when future prime minister of Israel Menachem Begin and his terrorist group Irgun leveled a section of the King David Hotel in the late 1940's killing 91 people? The Palestinians learned from that and many other acts of Jewish terrorism against the British.
There are many people in Israel that want to peacefully coexist with Palestinians and that a sovereign Palestinian state should be established. And believe it or not there are even some in the Arab world that are willing to live peacefully with the Jews. I was very hopeful when Amram Mitzna former general in the Israeli military and mayor of Haifa where Jews and Palestinians coexist very well was running for office against Ariel Sharon in this year's elections. I was disheartened when he lost.
Jews, Arabs and the rest of the world can coexist peacefully. In today's world it ain't easy, and it's hard to believe that a little over a hundred years ago there was no "Middle East Crisis". It all starts with respect.
P.S.
Here's something for you Bmwhaus and any of you conspiracy advocates. Do you think these secret, back room deals have anything to do with GW Bush's old Skull and Bones ties from his Harvard days? And since Skull and Bones members are supposed to help each other for life, it'll be interesting if Bush goes up against John Kerry in the next election since he's also a lifetime S&B member. |
Ahh, Yale? My mistake, I knew it was of them thar skoolz. Papa Bush AND Grandpappy Bush were all in the same society. I thought they were all Free Masons until I saw that 60 Minutes piece on Skull And Bones. Thanks Slipknot!
Mghcanuck, If I were GW I would have followed the path you described. Easy for me to say though because we don't know what they knew at the time, but also kind of spooky when you realize they didn't really know that much and seemed to have made up some stuff to bolster their case against Iraq.
My fear is that Bin Laden had been planning his escape for many years and he was ready for the possible repercussions of a US led invasion. It seems Hussein was also well prepared, but he finally got caught. However, when the White House realized we weren't making the kind of progress we'd hoped for in Afghanistan in regards to catching Bin Laden, maybe due to faulty intelligence, I don't know...that's when we decided to shift the world's and our nation's focus from one Middle East nation to another more "winnable" situation. It just seems that way.
Now let's enjoy the holidays and hopefully by catching that scraggly old fellar there might be a boost in holiday retail sales.
One question. Who the heck are you guys gonna vote for in 2004? I haven't a clue yet. We've had an actor as president and California governor, and an ex pro wrestler as Minnesota governor. Maybe a cast member from Survivor or Queer Eye For The Straight Guy might run. |
Onhwy61, I didn't think about that but it definitely sounds like a real possiblity. I'm sure people like Bin Laden would like nothing better to do than to make us look weak in the eyes of the world. Specifically, the Arab World and our Arab allies. I heard a young Arab man say he was glad 9/11 happened because the US finally got a punch in the nose. He was from an Arab country friendly to the US, I forgot which one, but although he admires our culture and people, he is sick of our policy in the Middle East. I've seen this echoed in interviews with young Arab college students from countries that are US allies. This is a very tricky and confusing dynamic.
Bin Laden being exiled from Saudi Arabia might have something to do with him wanting to stir the pot in his ex-homeland. Frankly, I'm more fearful of guys like Mullah Mohammed Omar the ex-head of the Taliban and Ayman Al-Zawahiri who's most likely the real guiding force behind Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
I've seen interviews with people of varying Arab nations who are more afraid of their own government than they are of the US or radicals within the Muslim world. As benign as Saudi Arabia often appears because they're to an extent our ally, I wonder how much this applies to the ruling Saudis and their people. It's hard to imagine this would be the case in Kuwait or Bahrain.
History has shown that politics and who you choose as an ally plays an important part in the survival of your country or kingdom. It's an interesting paradox for the Saudis to have the US as an ally which affords them a great deal of security from their hostile neighbors. But on the flip side having infidel military bases on Muslim soil also causes great consternation. Being a ruler is no fun at all, because you can never make everyone happy. All you can do is to try to survive.
As for the hijackers I may be mistaken, but I thought guys like Mohammed Atta and the others were mostly Egyptian. The curious thing about guys like Atta and some of the other Palestinian suicide bombers is that they weren't radical until they went abroad to study in Europe. There they were recruited by radical clerics and brainwashed into making themselves human missiles.
I've asked my Dad about this kind of thing since he was a pilot in the Japanese Imperial Navy during WWII and how is it that people can be mass mobilized for a cause like this. He and some buddies volunteered for the Naval academy when they were still in high school. At 16 and 17 they were ready to die for Japan. I've heard all these stories how Japanese mothers sent off their boys telling them they should die for the Emperor. It's funny because my Grandmother told my Dad not to do anything stupid and to come back alive. Did I have the one sane WWII Japanese Granny? Hahah. Curiously, my Dad really doesn't have an answer for his youthful zealousness, saying maybe it was just that. But he also doesn't think Japan was wrong either. Have any of my fellow Audiogoners ever wondered what was on the minds of young Germans and Japanese during this period?
There are so many things that contributed to 9/11. And the sad thing is that it might have been avoided if we had just acted more responsibly in the Middle East. |
Slappy, that's exactly how my Dad looks at it.
It would be hard for many Americans to believe anyone could have such a viewpoint, especially the way we're taught history in school, but there is another side to WWII.
As an American of Japanese decent I'm deeply ashamed at what happened in Nanking for three terrible months, and events like the Bataan death march. We also can't forget the inhumane biological experiments performed by the Japanese on unwilling Chinese prisoners. What gets my goat is that the German and Japanese scientists that committed these heinous crimes were allowed to avoid war crimes trials and immigrate to the US in secret in order to work for us!
On the flip side, my aunt was one of the young victims at Hiroshima. My Dad remembers returning from the war and seeing all the skin on his kid sister's arms hanging from her finger tips. For many years my Dad was afraid of what might happen if my aunt had children. Luckily they turned out fine.
Interesting thing about the TWO bombs. It seems Truman as well as most of the high ranking military commanders knew the Japanese were beaten, and that they were actually trying a face-saving surrender through the Russians. Although Truman seems to have been reluctant, it was Secretary of State James Byrnes who gave the Manhattan Project top priority and convinced him to go through with it. The decision to drop the bomb was made to end the war, but more probably to send a message to the Russians that we don't mess around. Can you imagine that, the obliteration of almost two hundred thousand people just to make a statement to Stalin?
Wouldn't it be nice if one day Iraq and the whole Middle East could become close US allies the way Germany and Japan have? If that ever happened, who would our enemies be then? |
I was afraid that I may have gotten too overzealous with my initial comments in this thread. It's great to hear such wise words from you guys.
One thing that still erks me to this day is the policy of silence the Japanese government uses when confronted with dark areas in their history such as WWII crimes. My Dad receives a daily Japanese language newspaper, and in the english section I occasionally see articles about the "comfort women", women from China and Korea who were abducted and made to serve Japanese soldiers as sex slaves. The Germans have repeatedly apologized and made massive reparations to Jewish families and Israel for Hitler's crimes. I was raised in a "Japanese Way" to be honorable and face up to my mistakes, so when I see modern Japan sixty years since WWII unable to issue any kind of apology for so many of the wrongs committed then it makes my blood boil and I feel ashamed.
You folks are so right about separating the everyday people from the few in power who make the decision to go to war. Case in point.
My father was shot down twice during the war, so I'm quite fortunate to exist and be able to post in the Audiogon forums! A few years after my father moved to the US he was contacted by a man saying he had some how located my father through the War Department and he in fact was one of the guys that shot my Dad down. My Dad flew reconnaissence missions for the Japanese Navy in areas such as the Aleutian Islands in the north Pacific and Rabaul in the south. On one of these missions he was shot down and survived two days floating in the middle of ocean with his wounded navigator until a Japanese sub located them. My Dad often jokes that if he didn't have photos and information the Navy wanted they might have left him bobbing up and down like cork.
The fellow who contacted my Dad was a lawyer from New York who happened to be in Los Angeles and was wondering if my Dad would like to meet for dinner. I don't know if I was born at the time but my Mom went along and they had a very nice time. My father said this man from New York was apologetic, but my father really had no ill feelings. As with some of the other WWII my dad met they all agreed that they were only doing their job for their country and there was no personal animosity at all.
I realize the way one feels about their war experience largely depends on how traumatic it was, so I find it interesting that Vietnam veterans seem to harbor much more resentment. It could have to do with the way the two wars were viewed and treated by the public at the time.
I can remember being a young kid at my parent's dinner parties and having some WWII vets there. Most were my dad's friends from his architectual firm and had served the US military in the south pacific and Europe. However, my favorite "uncle" was a guy named Ted who served under General Rommell in the tank brigade in north Africa. This was one funny and fun guy to be around! Can you imagine a German soldier, a couple US army guys and a Japanese pilot having a family get together? Pretty neat stuff.
Lugnut, I often forget your theory of how money runs the world and I'm jolted back into focus when I see preferential treatment given to firms like Haliburton. The way the bidding was conducted and post war rebuilding planned, it makes you think the whole purpose for chasing Saddam into a hole was just so we could rebuild the damn country. It doesn't seem to make sense since it cost so much to conduct the war in the first place. |
Bravo, Treyhoss and Mghcanuck! It never ceases to amaze me how complicated, yet at the same time how simple affairs like these are.
I agree as a whole and without the advantage of knowing the alternate outcome [if we had done nothing] that it was a very good thing Saddam has been removed. Just think what might have been if Gore was President when 9/11 went down and how events would have played out afterward.
We may be viewed by some nations as being quick-on-the-trigger cowboys, but the way Germany and France acted has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't blame the Bush Administration for freezing out those countries from the post-war rebuilding contracts that tried to prevent a UN mandate for invading Iraq. It sure seemed that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder let his personal dislike of Bush dictate Germany's stance on this issue. I thought French President Jacques Chirac liked GW? I heard that prior to giving a speech blasting the US position that Chirac's people would contact the Bush people and let them know what was going to be said in advance. With strong French public opinion against the invasion, it probably would have been political suicide for Chirac to back Bush.
So what are these Sea Kings and should I worry about them falling on me in California? Oh, and Mghcanuck, I heard the US military was VERY impressed with the Canadian sniper units stationed in Afghanistan. |
Mghcanuck, you gotta love those 50 cal. rifles similar to the Barrett 82A1 a lot of the sniper platoons seem to be using these days. I saw an ad for the bolt action version that claimed accuracy out to 2000 meters. That's pretty close to Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock's confirmed kill in Vietnam. |
