What to upgrade to?
Zu Audio speakers like Druid mk6 are high efficient (101db) and does not require high power amp, they are reasonably priced with full refund/return guaranteed withing USA. Low power amp (tube or SS) and it can match your budged even if you will buy new turntable too. You forgot to say what you got now ? |
Chakster, Thanks for your reply. I have looked at Zu and my amp would work perfectly. Btw I purposely didn't list my table or speakers because they both are excellent. I just would like to hear other people's take on which made better sense to upgrade. Some say source is #1 others argue speakers make the biggest difference. Thanks for your recommendation. |
I guess it would depend on where I felt I have the most to gain based on what's available on the market. If you're in love with your speakers and never heard anything in your budget that makes a material improvement then I'd apply my funds to the table....and vice versa. But....there are lots of $12K-$15K speakers that I feel sound as good as speakers twice their price but there are very few $10K tables that sound better than the best $20K-$25K tables. If you're really pleased with your speakers I think you'll reap more rewards on the table (and cart!)....that's just my perspective. |
Yogiboy I have a Artisan Fidelity Lenco table with a SME arm and Intuitive Design Gammas speakers. Both perform at a high level for their price. Almost no one is familar with my speakers that's why I didn't want to mention the table and speakers. 3 Easy Payment thanks for your opinion. I could move up the Artisan Fidelity chain with a trade in. Always a option. Keep them coming. |
Dale Pitcher's speaker are very good. He puts a lot of work into designing and building them. The Artisan Fidelity tables are very good as well. It's been a while, like almost 25 years, but I used to live within a few miles of Deja Vu Audio. Vu got me into my first tube component and my first of a few pairs of Spendor speakers. I see a common denominator here with what I would refer to as bespoke gear. Why not continue the trend. A set of Audiokinesis speakers could be interesting. |
So some of you have identified my situation. My speakers, turntable, preamp and amps are all very good. The system sounds great and is evenly balanced. My real delima is I have the cash to spend on a real nice upgrade but what would be the best upgrade! It is killing me having saved for quite awhile but there seems no clear path on which component upgrade. One moment I am convinced I need different speakers the next moment it a new TT. There has been some great suggestions and knowledge from you guys thanks. Still open to any recommendations. |
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@bobheinatz, Some thoughts, 1. Does your Lenco turntable have all the latest mods - see discussion high-endaudio.com/RC-Lenco.html. This will likely not consume much of your budget but could improve what you have. The SME V is such a high performer, to get better will be very much on the side of diminishing return. Otherwise there are many that swear by the superiority of the Lenco rim drive, so a new direct drive may only be a variation. 2. Any thoughts to a step-up transformer assuming you are using a moving coil cartridge? What about a new cartridge? 3. Your speakers are a pretty old design, and it appears that Dale Pitcher may no longer be in business; https://www.choiceaudio.com/specials/intuitive-design-gamma-summits since his site is no longer active, but that does not mean new will be better. Given your budget of about $20K, there many speakers available, but purchase without some audition would probably not be wise. Later this year, if you could a attend one of the audio shows, maybe CAF-2020 (not knowing where you) capitalaudiofest.com/caf2020/ could be an option. I have Kharma CE2.2 speakers that I bought new, and after twice to CAF 2018/2019, the only speakers that I would have considered (but not over whelming) where the top line Joseph Audio and the Vimberg Mino both around $30K, and basically for me non-starters. Also, as discussed in the Choice Audio site is the option for a sub-woofer to supplement your current speakers. 4. The last 10-years have seen a dramatic price increase in manufacturing cost of high end equipment and the value of new today does not necessarily equal new from 10-years ago. The granite cabinets of your current speakers are not degrading any time soon, at least not for the next >>>100 years. If Dale Pitcher is still available, what would he maybe recommend as an upgrade to your current speakers. What I see is someone who spent their $$$ very wisely, and bought equipment that can stand the test of time and in some cases is bespoke and maybe just some upgrades will be your best and most satisfying approach. Just some thoughts, |
antinn, Very thoughtout suggestions. My AF Table has all the upgrades available for that Lenco model. There are two other AF Lenco models which would be a really nice upgrade according to Chris at Artisan Fidelity. So that's a option and certainly a more expensive cartridge is always available. You are right on with the manufacturing costs in the last 10 years. It wasn't that long ago when a $10k speaker was considered expensive but it seems like $30k is the new norm. The Joseph line is one that I am familiar with and also like. Thanks for your input. |
Bob — Just came through a similar dilemma (in my case, a few extra bucks to spend; nowhere near retirement; and pre-Covid by a few weeks). Existing system was very strong, but I decided one can always have a better cart and phonostage, and — other than speakers — those two items can make a bigger difference than a TT, assuming your existing TT is high caliber already, and assuming you spend a good percentage of time listening to vinyl. I went from a Kiseki Purple Heart to a Lyra Etna and from a Gryphon Sonett to a Audio Research REF 3 phonostage. Blew my mind how much improvement that brought. The ARC can be found used and they’re basically bulletproof other than the tubes. I highly highly recommend this option. (Also, I’ve skipped many of the responses above, so apologies for any repetition or missing something you may have clarified.) |
Chakster, You're welcome. It's definitely worth to try ZU and simply return them with no loss if you don't like it. Speakers definitely will make bigger difference if your turntable/cartridge/tonearm already very nice. When i upgraded from traditional (2way) Dynaudio speakers to Zu Audio Druid mk4 i was shocked. Because ZU is different concept, their own driver is super efficient, this is full range driver, NO CROSSOVER, only high pass filter for super tweeter. This is the most dynamic system i ever heard and it's a pleasure to use Zu Druid even on very low volume (if needed). Also my power amp right now is Yamamoto A-08s with 45 tubes (only 2W power) and preamp is passive Pass Aleph L. It's so easy to drive ZU Audio Speakers even with 2w amp in relatively big room! Amazing. Try it. maybe you will discover something completely new if your current speakers are not full range type. If you like it you can always add Zu Audio SUB, there are few excellent models look here. Another speakers that impressed me were Tannoy. |
If you highly value what the Gamma Summits do well, and that is a substantial list, tread carefully replacing them. They are an excellent speaker and don't come up for sale very often. There is nothing wrong with trying to find something better, but the grass may not be greener. I would hold back selling them until you are certain you are making the right decision. |
Do you listen to mono lps? I changed from SS to tube preamp and tube amp: thought I was 'done', then joined the forum, ... learned about the real difference playing mono lps with a mono cartridge has over playing mono with stereo cartridge (true), and, I wanted to try a longer arm. Not easy. Ended up going for a large plinth two arm setup, 9" arm with mono cartridge ready to go, and a 12.5" arm with stereo cartridge ready to go. 9" arm has removable headshell, to use alternate stereo cartridges. you need an easy way to pick which arm/cartridge. I didn't think about that, fortunately my old McIntosh mx110z tube preamp has phono 1 and phono 2, couldn't be easier, just got lucky. I got newer tools for lp setup, accessories, and, I found a cleaning/drying system that makes a huge difference for my old lps playing quietly. Now I think I am done. The lubricant in my reel to reel player and cd player is drying out, I know need to play them just to keep them limber. |
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I have about 10k in a complete turntable and my speakers retailed for 12k about 5 years. Both I could live with in retirement and be quite happy. Congratulations! You have done it. Built a system you really enjoy. You should be proud of yourself. Way to go! But I have $15k - $20k to spend if I want to on either upgrading my turntable or speakers. What would you upgrade? Turntable or speakers? Wait- what??!?! I thought you just said.... and I said,... never mind. This is where I get to put in my plug for how people are so totally missing the boat leaving so much performance on the table, sound they never in their lives imagined was right there in front of them just waiting to be unleashed and revealed. But no, instead of that they run out and spend money replacing perfectly good stuff they already had missing a golden opportunity to go so far beyond they could never even believe until they do it. And maybe not even then. Save your money, bob. Tweaks are the answer. If you spent half of what you're talking about on stuff I know about you would have ten times the sound you could get with any combination of speakers and turntable you're considering now. Ten times. And I'm being conservative. |
I have gotten some great recommendations and one mentioned above is a second arm on my table. It is slotted for a 12" arm so that is a possibility. It has also been mentioned by a few that are familiar with my Intuitive Design Gammas that they are excellent speakers and changing speakers might not necessarily be a upgrade. I agree they do sound really good. I don't necessarily want to spend the money just because it's there. I can always add a better power cord or tube roll. Sure there are other tweaks that can be made to my system. I guess possibly going to a few dealers or shows and listening to some speakers is a option. Again thanks to everyone who has replied. Any other suggestions I am full ears. |
+1 on the millercarbon recommendations Is your room treated? Easy, Cheap and often ugly (IMHO) Connects upgrades epically into amp(s)? Better wire matters. Is your power treated? Not with a lower end box but a Niagara 3000 or the like. Do you like horns for speakers? Klipschorn's???? |
The two things you're concerned with, turntable and speakers, are prime candidates for tweakery. Obvious choices to start with are Synergistic Research HFT, ECT, and PHT. Everything I am about to recommend, btw, will seem like it can't possibly make that much difference. Until you try it, and even then you probably will not believe it. Synergistic is not even the best of them, but close, and we will start there because they have a 30 day guarantee. So by the time you try a few my credibility will be epic and you will have the confidence to try the other ideas. Which you should. They are fabulous and guaranteed to transform your listening experience. HFT, ECT and PHT you can see used extensively in my system here. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Look close you will see 3 PHT on the cart and arm, plus ECT on the arm base, and motor, and amp. Zoom in, hard to see. HFT are on the speakers and walls. These things all seem like they couldn't possibly make any difference. In fact every single one of them improves imaging, dynamics, presence, and detail to a remarkable degree. What I mean is you can hear just one, and by the time you do a set you're impressed, and by the time you do several sets you're amazed. I've compared, its just not possible to find a component upgrade that will deliver this kind of performance improvement. Better, yes. This good, no. Not without spending a whole lot more. Now that you're sure I know what I'm talking about place a couple orders for fo.Q tape. It comes in thick and thin. I would get one of each. This special piezoelectric tape effectively kills vibration. First time I used just one little inch and heard improvement. One inch! Now there's a strip running the length of the tone arm tube. I like to keep mine out of sight as for me part of the pleasure is the look and feel. But there's no reason not to wrap the whole thing in this stuff. The more the better and the improvement is clearly audible. Tone arm base, counterweight, plinth, motor, spindle, base, footers, you name it. Great stuff for retired as all this stuff is a bit time consuming which is just what you need. I'm enjoying it and not even retired yet! Speakers, thick fo.Q tape is an awesome speaker gasket upgrade. I pulled the drivers and put it on the baskets, anywhere and everywhere you think might be good to kill vibration. Which on speakers and turntables is everywhere. From here we get to the big time, the creme de la creme, cutting edge nano tech electron shear wave enhancement and unfiltering. You want to know how good that works check with another retired audiophile oregonpapa who I know will confirm just how unbelievably far you can go without having to upgrade a single component. |
Dear @bobheinatz : My take is that for you can have more precise advises about it will be important that you post which are your room/system MUSIC listening main targets, the kind of MUSIC you normally listen/your preferences about, your room listening dimensions. Can help too not what upgrade you want: TT or speakers but overall what characteristics in your room/system quality performance do you think needs an improvement against your first hand experiences with live MUSIC events seated at near field position or against other room/systems that you think outperforms what you have. You can make true system quality improvements with 20K if you know exactly where and how do it. You need to identify the weaks " points " in your system and its strong ones too that you don't want to beeen altered with your investment. Anyway, only an " idea ". Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Turntable-wise, you could stay with what you have, and try an additional arm (Chris would probably be able to nicely add a new arm, or, you could change arms for one that would enable you to change cartridges by just changing head shells.) I use a Garrard 401 that I refurbished on a plinth I made myself, with a Dynavector 501 arm. Changing cartridges is a snap. Sound quality is shockingly good, depending on the recording, of course. And, my speakers are Tannoy. I know this is not the time to go out and audition loudspeakers, but I feel you might want to hold off on purchasing turntable/speakers until you can go hear what interests you. Or the free home trial is a good option, if not a pain in the butt. Oh, by the way, I'm in the PNW as well. Well, best of luck to you, stay well, and good things will happen at the right time. Regards, Dan |
I would like to thank everyone who has participated on my thread. There were alot of great suggestions. I was pleasantly surprised that there were a few who has heard my speakers and know of Dale's work. After listening last night I can reaffirm the the Intuitive Design speakers are extremely good. I have decided to upgrade my cartridge and see how that upgrade works before looking at anything else. Perhaps a serious cartridge upgrade will be all that's needed. |
@bobheinatz, FYI - Soundsmith has most of their upper line cartridges on sale 25% off, https://elusivedisc.com/search?search_query=Soundsmith. A nice benefit of Soundsmith is their ability to rebuild the cartridge to near new many times at a fraction of the new-cost, and the rebuild is a new stylus-cantilever-suspension. Makes those retirement $$$ go further, if the cartridge sound is to your liking. I heard a direct comparison between their top of line Hyperion vs a Lyra Etna - same turntable & arm (VPI HW-40) and all the same electronics (CAF-2018) playing a Louis Armstrong record. The Lyra made Louis Armstrong sound like he was playing Aspen, CO (crisp dry air) while the Hyperion sounded like he was playing in New Orleans (thick humid air). They both sounded great, but it all comes down to your taste. Otherwise, I own the Soundsmith Carmen and Paua, and these tend to be a bit sultry which is my preference, whereas the Sussurro and Hyperion is said to be more detailed. The web has review of just about all their cartridges. Good Luck, and remember, every change that you make to your system makes what is old new again, and when retired you should have more time to listen. So, maybe if you budget/stage your 'improvements' you can keep that journey going throughout your retirement for many years to come. |
Time for one of the fantastic new $10,000+ phono cartridges. With your system you could really unlock great sound with something like an Ortofon MC Anna Diamond. The other thing - it's sacrilegious - a great new streamer and DAC. Your budget would get you some great "analog sounding" digital gear. And with Tidal Masters or Qobuz Studio you'd have a chance to listen to everything new BEFORE buying it on vinyl. Which is the best way to do digital. |
bobheinatz
, I dont know your spkrs that well, but am going through similar situation. you have a nice table and arm, I would go for the phono stage upgrade. Last 24 months have bought and sold a variety of phono stages in the 2k to 5k range. finally bit the bullet and walked up to next level. bought the VTL TP 6.6 signature with all options. Have never heard LPs sound so good and so dynamic. so my vote would be spend your cash on the VTL phono stage. best of luck |
Dear @bobheinatz : Now that you decided to go for a top cartridge here some alternatives where you can't go wrong with either: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa1ecc-ortofon-mc-century-cartridge-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa1h97-lyra-atlas-sl-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99edf-ortofon-anna-mc-as-new-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9gjc5-transfiguration-audio-proteus-diamond-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9b2j9-zyx-universe-iii-new-fabulous-zyx-cartridges https://mysoniclab.com/#/ultraeminent/ After that I think that you can explore the convenience or not to improve tha bass range of your system due that as better your low bass range as better the overall room/system quality performance levels: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 Here I'm talking of quality over quantity of that bass range. Nothing substitute quality vs quantity. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Which amp do you have? I think the amp and the speakers will have to match to work really well. You could change both at the same time and sell your old amp but that might leave you less money for the speakers. I also think the speakers will make a larger difference but if you are satisfied with your system you don't really have to do anything. What you could do is to find some used speaker or amp (or TT) you are curious about and buy that. Try it out for a few weeks and then sell it if nothing improved. An amp that impressed me was the Abosolare Integrated but then you would have to let go of your preamp also. For speakers I like a number of Focal speakers, the Sopra 3 should be around $20k. The Boenicke W11 SE is also around that price. |
OP. I built an isolation stand for my vintage audio linear turntable. step 1 go to grantie shop and purchase appropriate size remanent cost $10 step 2 go to local building supply store and get a 2x2 chunk of mdf cost $10. Step 3 find a yoga mat that no one is using cost $0 Cut the materials so they all match in size sandwich the yoga mat piece between between the granite and mdf use construction adhesive to adhere them. clamp it together and wait for the adhesive to set. this works about as well as my symposium shelf under my vpi scout. point is have fun if you're retired may as well have something to do, exercise your brain figuring out how to do it. |
