Thanks for the posts guys! I'll try to incorporate as many of your ideas as possible (guess I'll be busy mooching speakers for a bit) and if anything leaps out as being great, I'll post a follow up. |
Lots of posts on this particular topic - one of which was posted by me a few months back!
I, too owned the Aerial Model 5s and purchased them specifically for my small room (11X12). They really were terrific placed on the factory (24") stands.
I also tried Magnepan MMGs with GREAT effect. They integrated very well into the room and only needed to be placed about 2 feet from the front wall for optimal results. I was so smitten, in fact, that I decided to promptly sell them and upgrade to 1.6s.
The 1.6s are not nearly as easy to integrate due to their larger size and deeper bass response, however, they're not as difficult as one might think. They're a little less than 3 feet away from the front wall and about 6 1/2 feet apart. I sit about 7 feet away from them. Associated gear is:
ARC CD-2 - used as a tranport
MSB Link DAC III with ModWright mods, upsampling and P1000 power supply
CJ PV11
ARC D-115MK2
I'm VERY pleased with the overall sound. There are a lot of misnomers about dipole/stator speakers being difficult to place, need a lot of room to breathe, etc. I'm finding that it's not any more true than any other speaker. For example, many (most) small speakers (not your Aerials, though) are ported to the rear. This can make placement in such a small room extremely difficult if not impossible.
Anyway, that's my story...
Best of luck to you. There are a LOT of knowledgable folks on this site. The good news here is that I'm sure you'll find something that's going to work for you.
-Dan |
In a square or cubic room, a conventional monopole speaker will have severe low-frequency standing-wave problems. However, a dipole speaker will not, because the figure-8 bass radiation pattern will only significantly excite room modes in one dimension.
On the other hand, in a small room few dipole speakers work well because the backwave needs plenty of room behind it to avoid coloration in the midrange and treble. However, not all dipole speakers operate as a dipole all the way up. The Original Quads, the "57's", have a damping pad behind the tweeter panel that absorbs much of their backwave, allowing them to be positioned back closer to the wall than most dipole speakers.
The Gradient Revolution has dipole bass loading, and carefully controlled cardioid radiation in the midrange and treble. The result is an extremely relaxing and natural-sounding presentation that is pretty much independent of the room's acoustics. Disclaimer - I'm a Gradient dealer.
If you're willing to treat the backwave, you might be able to get away with using Maggies in your room. I have a friend who, on my recommendation, tried the little MMG's in an 11 by 11 by 11 (cubic!) room. The result was very satisfying, but the backwave is partially absorbed by draperies.
Best of luck to you in your quest! |
The best I've heard in a small room are the Piega p-8 ltd or for a monitor the p-2 limited.These are designed exclusively for this type of application.Search these out they will work better than anything mentioned here. |
Ehider, that is a great deal. I was not aware of the scanspeak available at that price in a retail speaker. If the crossover does justice it is something to look at. I have used the 7inch 8546/8646 lots and the 8530(the 5inch) quite a lot and it is a deal at that price. I think the 5" driver alone is about $175 each if you buy them at typical DIY outfit! Don't know how they do it. SS makes a great driver.
Also, a 10 by 10 room is trouble. It reinforces the same standing wave in all directions and needs some work. As important as the speaker you choose maybe.
Thanks for the info Ehider and Cheers,
i remain |
My room is 7.5x10x8 and an interesting challenge as well. I started with ACS bass traps, Echo Busters, and Room Tunes. These properly applied helped. Next I tried a Rane one-third octave EQ. Since I own a real-time analyzer I could do the measurements and make the corrections. This helped the frequency response, but had the inherent phase problems. Then I tried a Roland digital EQ (24 bit AD/DA with 32 bit processing). This was much better but the additional AD/DA was evident with good speakers. Finally, I purchased a Tact RCS 2.0 and for me the problem was solved. (www.tactaudio.com) Good luck! |
Yeah, I have extensive experience with small room set-ups from an acoustical standpoint. I assume your room is a perfect rectangle/square all around? Also, your ceiling is probably 8', right? If this is the case you need to be using ONLY 25" stands or shorter for 2 way monitor speakers. With an 8' ceiling, and small room dimmensions, is almost impossible to get good bass when the speakers are up higher on stands(26" and higher). Also, you will DEFINITELY have to play around with speaker placment in that room quite a bit to get the sound adequate from where you sit(probably against the wall, correct?). That scenario already will have some problems with bass response sounding boomy. You'll likely either have to get some small floor standers, or use 2 way ported speakers out into the room a bit, or do acoustic suspension sealed speaekers that can go a bit closer to the front wall. Sill, you want to stay away from really full range speakers in that tiny room, and cocentrate on bass limited speakers. Then, you can use your woofer if you need to, and perferablly EQ the sub!!!...for flat response from where you sit.
I know of what I speak, as my last room, using higher end gear, was 10.5' X 12.5' x 8'...and it was a bear to get my little ported SF Minima Amators to sound good in that room. I also had Thiel 1.5's in the room which worked great if you got em off the floor a bit, and tried Thiel 2.3's as well (too much bass for the room).
However, for your room, may I strongly suggest that you will do NO BETTER Sonically, and practically wise, then the Merlin Millenium TSM acousic suspension monitors!!! They are perfect for small rooms, are class A rated monitor for sure, work great with tube gear, or lower powered SS as well, and are easier to place in small rooms with their design! Not being ported they even usually work well closer to walls in small rooms.
They retail for $2500/pr new, and are a steal! I know, I own them currently myself. Anway, go to www.merlinmusic.com if you want specs and review. |
I was recently at a dealer who had one small room about the size of yours.He was using Soliloquy 2a3 mini monitors on and off with a Soliloquy sub.The amps were Cary 2a3 monoblocks(5 watts set) or a Cary rocket 88(20 watts triode).Boys and girls,It doesn't get much better than that in a small room. |
I have talon Peregine Xs set up in my 10*11 and they sound wonderful. They are almost right up against the back wall but because they are front ported this is a minor issue. Email me to discuss if you are interested... |
The dip that you are experiencing in the upper bass / lower midrange is typical of a "floor bounce" reflection. Altering the height of your speakers will play games with this to a great extent. Knowing this, you can experiment around and see what you can come up with. This is not to say that this is your only problem, but that it would be my first guess. Sean
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I recently had the same quagmire to deal with in a 10 x 11 office that I wanted to put high end sound into. I tried many speakers, but all were either too mid-fi sounding, too big with boomy bass or too small with no real bass. My goal was to obtain world class sound and decent bass. Finally I found the AV Reality Avinci ones. These use "best of the best" drivers that are usually only seen in $4000+ speakers. Luckiliy, AV Reality priced these speakers near $1000, so they were the bargain of the century when it comes to build of material cost versus customer cost (build of material cost is over $880!). Honestly I can't figure out how this guy makes any money...back to the speaker... What really makes this speaker work so well is that they have 5.5" Scan Speak revelator woofers. These are much easier to integrate into a very small room becuase of their size, yet these woofers are damn heroic. They have very surprising output down to 30 hz. From my understanding, they have the BEST bass of any woofer driver for their size, period. I can't say enough about these speakers because my other system is composed of Legacy Whispers in a 33 x 22 custom made dedicated listening room with 1000w dual subwoofers i.e. I am quite spoiled in terms of fidelity. The bottom line is that I enjoy music just as much on my small system with the AV Realitys and actually prefer their treble over my Whispers. They are that good! |
i'll offer what little help i can, and anyone who wishes to correct me may feel free to do so.
i'm going to assume the height of your ceiling is about the same as the width and length of the room. i seem to remember that cubes are BAD rooms for listening. if i have this right, the dimensions will reinforce (first???) reflections and create 'nodes' in your room where soundwaves will congregate. i believe bass response will be an early victim of your rooms dimensions.
i would look at your room before switching out speakers since if this is the problem, your new speakers will not correct for it.
since this is YOUR dedicated room, can you shorten the wall your speakers are NOT in front of? i think a shortening of about 1-2 feet could create a much better acoustic environment for you. there was a website i once came across that gave a top ten list of proportions for the dimensions of a room for listening, go to http://www.geocities.com/m_churches/room.htm.
check this out first and experiment
btw, nice choice of front end and amplification
hope this helps
correct me if i'm wrong |
