hello Rob its Justin Ingram mejames what specific sonic characteristics of the thiel are you not satisfied with?
What are their most important sonic strengths to you?
Ever tried tube amplifiers in your system or considered them before? |
A friend of mine went from the Thiels to the Avalon Eidolon. He has had them for several years now, and is very happy with them. These require a fair amount of power, however, your Pass 600 should do nicely. (He has successfully used a Classe CA-401 (400wpc) and VTL 450s. He is now trying Rowland 501s.
These cost slightly more than $20k new, (I believe $22K), but not much more.
Good Luck in your search. |
Rob,
The member you should talk to is Luke72. He has or had the CS 7.2 with the Pass Lab X600 amps. He has tried a few other speakers since then. |
I believe that TAS reviewer Anthony Cordesman still owns 7.2's. He thereafter used Revel Salons and Dynaudio Temptations as reference speakers.
His amps during that time were Pass X-600 monos, but he has since swapped them for Pass XA 160 monos |
Thank you Irish, I e-mailed him directly ;-) |
Hi Rob,
The Eidolon would be a good choice and if you can stretch your budget the Eidolon Diamond is even more captivating.
I've been fortunate enough to own both of them and both in their respective price categories (IMO) are SOTA.
Put the right components in front of them and in return you'll get magic!
Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for.
Tom |
You could try a top of the line (or one of them) Audio Note Type E speakers. They have full range sound, sound great, and are 95db efficient at 8ohms. The resistance operates between 6 and 8 ohms so it is an exceptionally easy speaker to drive and it adore quality tube gear. With 8 very good watts from a quality 300b amplifier you just might be surprised at the difference in sound from monster amps and Thiel speakers.
That is what I used before I went the SET/Audio Note speaker route. |
Rob,
I listened to 7.2's alot. I bought Wilson Benesch Chimeras. Much faster,natural base. Much better detail in midrange. Highs more natural less "sharp". Listen to them yourself ,I think you'll be impressed. |
The 7.2 isn't that good, the list I have is long, heck I even like the Wilson Watt Puppy 7 more than the 7.2.
ATC SCM100ASL---- Maybe the 7.2 has deeper bass but this is a very onesided contest. The 100's play louder, image better, have more timbrel accuracy....on and on. $15,000 with amplifiers its a no brainer. ATC provides a whole other world of playback performance. More accurate more dynamic.
Dynaudio Confidence Any, once again maybe give up the last little bit bass extension, but again play louder, more actual clarity and detail, images better than the Thiel and the ATC, but in my experience some of the worst sounding speakers image super well.
The least expensive speaker might be the ATC SCM-20-2 with a concept 4 subwoofer, even without the subwoofer the 20's better the thiels in the frequencies it covers in common with the 7.2.
Aerial 20T is another to consider.
When people own Thiel its like finding a speaker for a klipsch owner. The sound is so unique and its attributes accentauted that what is it that needs to be changed puts us in the certain direction to help you more specifically. |
OK. So maybe I was a bit unhappy with my system. I had stopped enjoying it and did not care for the sound. I found the high frequency to be accentuated, the mids to be lacking, and the bass to be nothing special. This was frustrating, because a couple months ago everything sounded great.
A couple nights ago I repositioned the speakers. There was about an inch of toe-in that I removed. When I sat back down, the difference was night-and-day. I mean going from thinking about selling to sitting there in amazement. I mean jaw-dropping, lump-in-the throat, sit on the edge of the seat, hair standing on the back of the neck, honey I'm not coming to bed for a while. Everything, from top to bottom, came into focus. The mids came out, the highs sparkle with detail and clarity, and the bass has pin-point accuracy. The soundstage was huge and realistic. Music had so much energy and rhythm. Basically, I rediscovered how good things are. It is just so hard to believe that a little toe-in can create such unhappiness.
So now I really can't imagine selling them. The Avalon Eidolon Diamonds might be tempting, but they are 3x the price. Nonetheless, it would be interesting to listen to new speakers if I'm traveling next to a dealer. Keep the recommendations coming.
As far as ATC goes, it looks like the only distributor is Flat Earth Audio in the US. Does this mean that there is no place to demo these other than CT? Also, I've heard Dynaudio, and I prefer the Thiel.
Thanks,
Rob |
Cinematic_systems-Most dealers that post here DISCLOSE they are dealers.
You sell the ATC speaker line,dont you???
Also,by your own admission,you dispise Thiel as you couldnt sell them,while other dealers were pushing them out the door.
Did you lose (taken away) the Thiel line due to poor sales?
Be honest now! |
Cinematic-systems:
How does the atc 150 asl pro image compared to the Dynaudio? |
Whatever David;
Whether I was a dealer or not my advice would not change. 75% of my advice I don't carry.
Everyone, I'm an ATC dealer.
The dealer I was employed by dropped the line because the speakers were uncompetitive and taking up space (after I left). By the way the same thing happened to Sonus Faber...if you want to see me get negative now there's a speaker line I can get negative about. To save time, I have been less diplomatic but I haven't told you anything I haven't told to the people at Thiel. So I'm no coward about this, it is what it is. And until they made the 2.4 there was nothing anyone could do to change it. Finally a good speaker from Thiel!, if they keep going I might become a dealer. Then I won't be able to talk about them on Audiogon.
This whole conversation brings this analogy to mind, I am a Tampa Bay Buccaneer fan since the drafted Hugh Green from the Pitt Panthers, so I have seen some hard times being a "fan". But I'm going to stick up for them and hope they do better next year or in the case of the 80's next decade. When you are a professional you are not afforded the luxuries of being a "fan". David you are a fan of Thiel and i'm picking on your team. you're the one not be reasonable or rational, you are not being objective. The speakers we discussed are bad speakers for the money and are terribly misrepresented by the press. Now this is how I look at it, put yourself in this position. One of your best friend wants a new stereo system and he's heard really great things about Bose and has read all the positive reviews and a couple of friends have chimed in to say how happy they are, what are you going to do? what would any of you do? He has all the back up you you claim to have with thiel and Bose gets pushed out the door at a staggering magnitude...How do you approach this? He's owned Bose 901-s for 15 years...where do you start.
I haven't heard one person say the 2.3 is as good as the 2.4, so if the difference is so clear cut then how can the 2.3 be world class and the 2.4 not be the end all be all?
As for the 7.2 its unique at best but if you like them more power to ya!. To think you could own a $14,000 speaker and if its not setup perfectly its dumpable? Sounds like a keeper to me.
BTW I used the 7.2 for 6 months to sell my personal designs, which I am dealer for. Imagine the shock of potential clients when my $6500 active speakers actually made a violin sound like a violin and not an expensive egg slicer like the 7.2. It was a great back drop for all the speakers I sold.
What better vehicle than to use a supposed to be and compare it to a really is. Sells the the really is everytime. Its a shame someone bought them because they were making me look good. Now I got ATC SCM-150ASL's at home and I'm back to being an amateur.
"You couldnt sell them,while other dealers were pushing them out the door."
I prefer nobody bought them, I don't sell anyone anything, I give you the information and you make the decision. Like I mentioned some time ago to bad I can't do a demo for you. All this talk is pointless, a 20 minute demo we'd see eye to eye we still may disagree but we'd understand each other much better. |
Cinematic systems, tell us how you really feel. I think this is hillarious. Yes, I agree that the Thiel 7.2 is alot like Bose except not as sexy. And I didn't realize that it also had culinary applications. You are like the Morton Downey Jr. of audiophilia.
You'd actually probably make good recommendations if you didn't repeatedly make statements that undermine your argument. I don't know if you are a genious or an idiot!
Where are you located? I have an open mind to try new things. Your description of my speakers is not similar to what I hear, so perhaps I need to have my ears opened.
Anyway, here's to audiophiles with opinions and preferences. Viva la difference!
Rob |
"to think you could own a $14000.00 speaker and if not set up perfectly its dumpable"
Im sure Rtn1 doesnt have them set up 'perfectly'but only found that proper speaker placement can have a profound effect on the sound.
What speaker doesnt benefit from being set up properly?
Are your ATC's immune to speaker placement?
I bet your ATC's can be set up facing away from you,1 speaker 8 feet and the other 12 feet away from your listening position and sound FAB!!
To Hell with speakers that need proper speaker placement to sound their best!!
Your dealership is getting some free advertising here for your ATC's..why dont you list them and sell them instead of brag about them??
|
Cinematic-systems
"Even a fool is thought wise when he remains silent". |
David do you want me to send you some ATC's?
Rob I'll send you some 100's and then I will take back everything I said about the 7.2s so you wont have to sell them on Ebay, you can sell them here :).
I must answer you;
I'm an idiot for getting into debates that cannot be solved through discussion. I love that everyone's having fun with this thread, it was a setup and I think I should have been a little more outrageous in my answers, but the egg slicer comment is a classic. Hope everyone appreciates the entertainment value.
Irish 65 I agree with you and thanks for setting such a classic example on that other thread. That thing about the LP's was textbook. |
To ALL:
If anybody wants to dump their 7.2's on me they are more than welcome. I will even pay shipping as well as a small stripend for their troubles. Thanks in advance.
Chuck |
Chuck-You wouldnt want the 7.2's
Cinematic-Systems doesnt like them. |
david99
great comment. but still no takers on my offer.
Chuck |
I presume from your question that you are looking to 'improve on' what you think is a good speaker; that is certainly a reasonable question.
It would help to know what you liked most and least about the 7.2 as a speaker, to know what direction to take.
They are very linear in thier nearfield output, with a smooth frequency response in reasonably nearfield locations. The lobing created by the first order crossover causes room curves which look odd, as reflected sound. But if you have a large room with limited room reflections from certain problematic distances they could be very good. Most people would say they are fairly good speakers, despite what one writer here said.
The Sound Labs are good speakers, though different in presentation, and may be worth looking in to.
The Nearfield Acoustics Pipedreams are tall and have the large cylindrical woofs to contend with, but are better in dynamics and bass response.
Subjectively, I like them, and they are found on the used market for more than reasonable price.
Don't be discouraged that someone rains on your product, it's typical of human nature, born of a lack of information or jealousy that perhaps they couldn't afford a speaker costing $12K.
Find a dealer with a good selection of product and take your favorite music. You may just find something perfect. |
I wonder what it is about some companies (certainly including Thiel) that incites such a vitriolic set of responses from the usually more evenly stated (and more helpful) responses you usually see on these forums?
I've only had experience with the 2.4 and the 1.6, and find it somewhat puzzling that they're being compared to Bose. Granted this company has a long history but the Thiels I've heard have been both good speakers and good values, so I genuinely find the venom behind some of these comments strange. Of course when people's businesses are involved and the sale or lack of sales of a speaker puts food on the table, some of the vehemance is more understandable, but what about the rest? |
Hi Rob, I looked at your system and it appears your Thiels are placed rather close together, perhaps 6 or 7 feet apart. For best results more distance is optimum but you might not have that option in your room. It makes a gigantic difference with my 3.6's, 9 feet is minimum, I currently have them 9.5 feet apart and the presentation is much more open and transparant. Acoustic guitar especially has so much more air making it sound much more realistic. I certainly don't mean to be presumptuous, just an observation. You have a great system. |
Thanks for the replies. I am extremely happy with my speakers. With the repositioning I mentioned earlier, they are like a whole other speaker. I have them a little over 9 ft apart with no toe-in and I sit about 12 ft away. I have them in the living room on the first floor, and they sound great in every room of the house. At this point, I'd rather tweak and refine what I have than head in a whole other direction.
Rob |
When I worked for THIEL, Jim Thiel, would almost always, set the 7.2's up as you have currently described; that is fairly far apart, as they have a large window of sound, and pointed almost straight forward--almost no inward cant to them.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the 1st order crossover causes lobing at certain distances, which if you fall outside the window of those distances, or those reflections within the room, you can get a very good sound.
Again, it is easy to criticize someone else's body of work.
I hope that you are happy with your 7.2's they're good in so many ways. |
Lrsky wrote
"But if you have a large room with limited room reflections from certain problematic distances they could be very good. Most people would say they are fairly good speakers, despite what one writer here said.
Lrsky, Does fairly good cut it for you at $14,000?
"Dear Ferry Porsche I'd like a fairly good racecar this year for LeMans" "Buy a Jaguar" was his response
Fairly good cuts it for me at $600
"limited room reflections from certain problematic distances"
Yeah be nice to have those distances in the manual. But those distances aren't available, and if the 7.2 shouldn't have reflections from the side walls why would the 2.3 rely on sidewall reflections to "fill-in the midrange response dip". ??? I really want to know.
"Don't be discouraged that someone rains on your product, it's typical of human nature, born of a lack of information or jealousy that perhaps they couldn't afford a speaker costing $12K"
Would anyone like the 7.2's crossover schematic? I know a good deal more about the 7.2 than you might think. Would you like to know why I have the schematic? Do you understand the crossover and how that crossover really works? Ever measure the drivers, ever measure the speaker?
As for raining on his speaker he opened the can by asking the question "What speakers after Thiel 7.2", and I'm the jealous ill-informed idiot that has an issue with a "fairly good" $12,000 (in basic black) speaker. Thiel is supposed to be the best not "fairly good" with undisclosed known room interaction problems and cone breakup problems.
I don't like being negative, but what have I said that isn't true? My opinion is negative about the 7.2 and I apologize to anyone I have harmed but I stand by the proof I have to back it up. I've "owned" CS7.2's two instances for several months at a time, they were in my home on my system. On axis to +/- 15 degrees they measure very well steady state and have excellent bass measurements and it shows in their sound. Dynamically they fall apart, the only reason I can go on so much about this was this was a long comprehensive project to make these speakers work so they would sell. The effort was sincere, and the concluding results unfortunate and dissappointing. I said enough, too much really.
The demo offer is still open to David 99 and Rtn1, Chuck if I find a cheap pair your the first guy I'll email.
PS: Sonance "I've only had experience with the 2.4 and the 1.6, and find it somewhat puzzling that they're being compared to Bose"
1st the performance of the speaker was not being compared to Bose, the analogy addressed the fact that reputation sustains them more than the actual performance of the speaker. Regular people buy bose because they are told they are good....does that help clarify the matter?
2nd if you look at the 2 main posts on this topic, you will note that I like the CS2.4, I think its a great speaker. But I don't get credit for that. :)
Venom? What did I say that was venomous, the fact that I have lots of facts and experience with the product something very few people in this thread have. Have you heard any of the speakers I recommended over the Thiels, (please note the topic of this thread) which one in your experience doesn't outperform the CS7.2?
I'm just asking, because i'd like to know?
Have a good weekend guys |
You don't deserve a response, with that attitude, and lack of knowledge. Keep talking. |
One other thought, for someone who has measured speakers, knows how the crossover works, AND still finds it inferior, why in God's name would you buy them twice?
F*** me once shame on you, F*** me twice shame on me, seems appropriate.
Cone breakup, fairly sophistocated equipment, unless you're just measuring distortion, which, of course they keep fairly low, as I have been in the THIEL's lab as Director of Sales, and seen the measurements at various volumes. First order crossovers don't appeal to everyone, and in my personal design I would never use them because of what I consider to be thier dynamic limitations; Jim Thiel and his 7.2 is hardly the Anti-Christ as you portray them, and him in your comments. Fairly good as I describe them, is a relative evaluation, which, without a basis for comparison, you could hardly know what that particular phrase means to me.
Only someone with a serious agenda could be this tough on what most people, who know what they are speaking of, consider this to be a good loudspeaker...perfect, hardly, but not as 'awful' as your mean spirited remarks would infer.
Please be civil, or take the venom elsewhere. This site is intended to be helpful not so negative. |
Cinematic Systems
What is your assesment of the 3.6's. And yes if you find a cheap pair of 7.2's I would very much appreciate an e-mail. Thank you in advance. This thread is becoming hillarious.
Chuck |
Lrsky,
I think cinematic is dead on with his assesment. It's a good speaker but not for 14000. This is a smoke and mirrors industry (pipedreams) and it's refreshing to find a person who tells it like it is without prejudice or fear of recrimination. I've listened to the 7.2's many times and I bought wilson benesch chimeras because they actually are worth 20k. VERY few speakers are. Profesional reviewers are not trustworthy (see Gryphon fiasco). I'd encourage people to listen for themselves and when possible to watch the products taken apart (its amazing what you find inside a 25k product). |
Cinematic_systems,
I would appreciate your opinion of the Thiel CS 2.4. You mentioned you liked the 2.4 and I'm interested in knowing what particulaly you like or dislike. Also what type of music did you play when you had the 7.2 in your home? What was the associated equipment? |
Rtnl
I have become so caught up in this post that I forgot to give you my opinion, and it is just that my opinion. I would love a pair of 7.2's I currently own 3.6's. I listen primarily to classical and some female jazz vocls from time to time. I really enjoy my 3.6's and have simply not stepped up to the plate to buy 7.2's. Primarily because of my family situation which doesn't give me much time to sit and listen for what I feel is enough time to justify their cost. Hope all is well
Chuck
|
Lrsky,
It is all relative as you say, for me and my clients $14,000 is a serious investment. When people spend that kind of money I don't think they expect compromise, I don't think they want caveats and asterisks next to the performance of their equipment.
Yes many people will think the 7.2 is a good speaker until they hear some of the speakers on my list above then the bar will be raised once again. Then their opinion would change. I have demonstrated the CS7.2s to hundreds of people, most of them I did not know at the time and do not know today. Since you are beyond your limit I will spare you the general consensus of their opinion.
I never bought 7.2's Lrsky, they were traded in to me, I brokered them for people that's why I put owned in quotes. My point was my knowledge and experience with this speaker was quite thorough and extensive. I would stop explaining my position if you would stop trying to discredit what I say and that my knowledge is limited on this speaker.
BTW I made an assumption about who you are, we have met and talked on the phone. Yes the measurements are in credible as I noted (steady state), maybe some of the best bass at the price point. But as I mentioned before something happens to them when they are playing under dynamic conditions that make the timbre's change. Infact if you don't listen to them very loud and stick to audiophile jazz recordings these speakers will do the job very well.
Here is where my opinion intervenes, I find that too restrictive a pallette for a speaker that is $14,000. So evaluate my opinion based on that, if at 14,000 you expect that level of compromise then my opinion is irrelevant.
Chuck I like the CS3.6's very musical and until the 2.4's came about probably the best value for performance speaker in the thiel line. I may know where you can get a pair. A gentleman just upgraded his CS3.6's to ATC SCM150's and may be interested in selling them. I'll email you the details. Give me a couple days. |
Chuck,
Another alternative thought to the 7.2 would be a used pair of CS5i's. They are a significant improvement over the 3.6. And, they are in many ways the best speaker Jim ever designed. The abundance of drivers, three 8" woofs, a 4" Kevlar, a (my memory fades here) 2.5 or 3" dome, and a 1" dome. The dome was remarkable having about 10x the typical excursion of tweeters of it's era. It had to be a dynamic tweeter to keep up with all those other drivers.
So you have a total of six drivers, giving this speaker great linearity, and what I call 'image density'. They can tend to be a but lean at about 70 Hz oddly (this is where the middle woof, which acts as a mid bass, lower mid driver) crosses over, and may have lobing issues, but nothing that judicious room placement can't help.
Even Jim, (sorry to tell people this publicly) admits privately that this (at least was)his 'favorite' speaker of his own design.
They can be had fairly cheap Chuck. I sold my pair for about $5K as I recall, and they were in beautiful Rosewood.
Remember there are two versions, the CS5 and the CS5i, the later standing for 'improved', and it was. The mid was better, and the woofs were much more hearty, with longer throw capability.
Good hunting. |
Please be kind, when evaluating others, for example, if you think I am above my limits, you obviously don't know that I put together a consortium of manufacturers for the 2004 show for Von Schweikert Audio, which included PS Audio, VAC, Acoustic Zen, et al, and we recorded Misty River every night with the help of Chris Huston, in a Live Versus Recorded show down, on Von Schweikert's $140K pair of VR 11's.
I really don't think you know me well enough to make your broad and sweeping statements as to what I am and what I know. Just more fodder for your presumptuous attitude.
The loudest clown is not the funniest you know.
I am sure you will be compelled to get the last word in, as it is your typical response.
Just remember, every time you think you know it all, something proves you wrong. |
Lrsky
It seems odd to me that Jim Thiel would redesign/replace the CS 5i's with a speaker of an inferior design the CS 7.2's if he felt the original was a superior speaker. This is as I understand why he has not replaced the 3.6 because of his inability to build a replacement that exceeds their performaance. Although I have heard rumors that one is in the works.
I do know that my 3.6's are very sensative to placement and that they are very unforgiving to upsteam components. They also respond good or bad when I make replacement / upgrade decisions.
I do find it strange that there is such a variance of opinions concerning Thiel speakers in general. It seems people either love them or hate them. I maust have things setup pretty well in my system because I love my 3.6's and so does my wife who couldn't care less. I also know it isn't just me as I have a pretty good hear for music being a musician myself and going to several concerts (classical). But boy these 7.2's sure seem to get people motivated to express their opinions.
Talk about bad. I have listened to a pair of watt-puppies being driven through all Levinson electronics at a local dealership. Talk about sound that was non-musical and sterile; my gosh, I simply could not stand it. And were talking about $20k plus speakers and about $40k plus of electronics MSRP. But some people love them and swear by them. However; I am sure in the right enviroment they are very good. But not when I listened to them and that was on at least two occasions. I had to go back because I could not believe my ears.
Chuck |
In your comments you imply, if not assume that Jim intended to make a speaker inferior to the CS5i.
The raw truth, from the inside of the company is, that the driver of import, being the coaxial driver, set the future in stone.
Because of the radiation pattern of the coaxial, which the CS5 did not have, made it technologically inferior, at least to those who consider the coax to be better.
I know for a fact that the CS5i is a better speaker than the 7.2 in the same vein as the CS 3.6 which your wife prefers. I never liked the 3.6 as it embodies the flaws of most typical speakers of first order cross overs. Plus the midrange literally flies into pieces when over driven, ask Dreamworks in Nashville, if that isn't true.
The CS5's were meant to be the do all end all speaker that Jim Thiel could produce. And they were really, damn good.
I regret that the 7.2 came afterward. It is a regression which is obvious to any serious listener. Now, you and I are having a civil conversation, without Macho interference.
I love music; I cried openly when I watched DeLovely, which was a tribute, supposedly done by archangel Gabriel, who interpreted Porter's life and actions. It is a shame that people of similar likes meet and cross swords as we did in the beginning, when, in effect, we agree, more than disagree.
You should hear my cheap little LSA2's at $1800. per pair.
Actually, if you will send me your private email address, I will send you a pair for your appraisal, with no regard to what you write. How's that for fair, and friendly Chuck?
You will be stunned at what I have done for that price, my gentleman's word on it.
Let me know by email if you accept. |
Cinematic_systems-I accept your demo offer (again) |
The Thiel 3.6 is being replaced with the new 3.7
I have no other details. |
lrsky
I do not think Jim Thiel would intentionally design and market an inferior design. In my comment I meant just the opposite that most companies, Thiel included, intend to improve on a design not regress. As an engineer myself we are always trying to improve on an a previous design and not just put something new out there. If it isn't better then why bother most customers, not all, are savy enough to figure it out pretty quickly. And that was all I meant nothing assumed or infered. My comments concerning the 3.6's not being replaced sooner came from some article I read where Jim Thiel makes the very comment I allude to.
Who manufactures the LSA2's? And yes this is an interesting discussion and I do appreciate keeping it civil. It does no one any good if it degrades into making slanderous comments or language. This is after all just a hobby. We are all trying to seek the same goal that being the enjoyment of listening to recorded music.
Chuck |
The company who actually manufactures the LSA to my design and specs, is a company located in the East, China.
They actually make MANY of the products that are in the high end arena today, and most people would be shocked to know just how many are made there, and the companies who use this labor force.
I remember a hue and cry that went up when people found out that Von Schweikert was made in China. What a red herring that was. I was reminded of the angest over autos being made in Japan, in the late sixties, early seventies.
A collective "Oh my God" went up from many Americans.
Now forty, almost years later we can all see that we live in a world community which will always chase the cheapest labor force, wherever it is. After Japan came Malaysia. I also remember the comments about NAD and Adcom being made in Malaysia, and how that was a 'bad thing'. Actually, it keeps costs in check for many people. In looking ahead, as soon as the standard of living in China becomes high enough that labor there is no longer inexpensive, the force may be found in the continent of Africa, who really knows.
I chose this company to manufacture because of their stellar reputation, and the people they supply now. I know that I can depend, even though my QC will be stringent, on them to replicate the prototypes to the letter.
We will have our official roll out soon, but we are off topic here, and should probably do this privately.
By the way, you mention being a designer, what do you design, and am I, or would any of the people who haunt these sites, be familiar with your designs? |
I am a mechanical engineer working in the automotive industry. I design and develop metal removal manufacturing process for crankshafts for internal combustion engines. Automotive being a highly competitive industry. I work very closely with designers to enhance the manufacturability of the component to improve both quality and lower costs.
Chuck |
Chuck,
There were rumours of a replacement for the 3.6 when I worked there, back in 1998, so don't wait. (Of course now that I say that, they'll probably release its replacement tomorrow)LOL!
The probem we (it was we back then) had, was that the damn thing just kept selling, or as Kathy Gornik, President of THIEL said, "They still have legs."
I personally never liked them because they had way too much of their own personality for ME. As someone said 'Vive la difference'.(I did not study French, as you can see.
Plus the sub woofer, in walls, and the final embracing of the Home Theater market, 10 years too late, came along for THIEL.
The other issue, is how to make a product which will 'fit' into the mix, not outperform others in your line, and cost less, killing some of your other products--the worst possible outcome. |
Lrsky-The 3.7 is in the works.
Thiel only builds ~ one 3.6 per month now.
Now is the time for a change..
Im hoping to snag a used pair of 3.6's when the 3.7's are released and 3.6 owners sell off thiers to upgrade.
The prices of used 3.6's are out of my league right now,but I hope this will change in time with the release of the new speaker.
Cinematic-I want to audition your speakers.
What inhibiting strings are attached? |
David,
That has been the official story for at least three years now. That is what I was alluding to earlier.
As early as 1998, we (I was still there) were talking about a 3.7, which could employ the coaxial array, and therefore be more in keeping with their current technology.
Unless you have an unimpeachable source, and even then, things change quickly, as demands are so inconsistent at various times. So today's ideas can change.
I hope for their sake, that they can bring out a 3.7. That is a good price point for them to be in, and their technology in that arena is very old. |
David99
I have a pair of 3.6's in amberwood I may be willing to sell when the time comes. Right now I really enjoy my 3.6's they image so well and the soundstage is wide and deep. I do not understand why anyone would think these speakers are not outstanding especially given their price. I would like a pair of 7.2's but it just isn't the time yet.
Chuck |
Lrsky as for "beyond your limit" I meant that you were irritated about this subject. I think your personal attack proves that my presumption was correct. Mr. read everything as negative and take it personal.
When you get your ASL's together we'll have to compare them to my $2400 active speakers, see who knows what. That's probably the only way to see who's credentials stack up to mean the most.
As for the 3.7....with a little intuition clearly the CS6 is the coaxial version of the 3.6, it just costs about $3000 more than should to be a CS3.7. So its been difficult to make a speaker that fits the price point of an upgraded coaxial 3.6 when your choices are to make a slightly smaller 6 or a slightly bigger 2.3. This has a great deal to do with the delay of a 3.7. I wonder which of these variation it will be. And the fact the the 3.6 is still competitive with most of the Thiel line after 11 years has kept it running as has been said.
Lrsky any input on that?
I wonder if the other posters would be interested in knowing that you were the one who told me that the CS2.3 relies on the side walls to fill in the hole on axis in the midrange?
The other Cinematic_Systems/ Lrsky anecdote was the miswired CS7.2s that you "listened to extensively" before they left the factory. Were you just lying to me then?
And we got along so well and nice conversations on the phone back then.
So In the end we have a ex-thiel employee and 2 Thiel owners vs. an ex-thiel dealer.
Have to think this is a pretty thorough outline of the CS7.2, lastly I was wondering if someone could explain to me how my criticisms were any harsher than Lrsky's.
"I never liked the 3.6 as it embodies the flaws of most typical speakers of first order cross overs. Plus the midrange literally flies into pieces when over driven, ask Dreamworks in Nashville, if that isn't true."
Am I missing something? I'd like to know so I don't make this mistake again. I hate being the loudest clown. |
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Cimematic systems / lrsky
In the end this is just a hobby and what other peoples opinions are concerning how my speakers perform really doesn't matter. It only matters what my opinion is concerning my purchase. If we start buying based on other peoples opinions them we will never be satisfied with our decision. If when listening to music you are concerned with what other peoples opinions are of what you are hearing then you are not listening to the music for the right reason. When we read the comments of what a reviewer writes we must keep it in context and still judge for ourselves. So in the end we all need to act in a civilized manner this is not life and death struggle simply a hobby for us to enjoy. There are far to many personnel attacks in these threads in general in my opinion. We are in the end all connected through a similar interest that being this hobby. We should learn to treat each other with mutual respect and dignity.
You have your opinions concerning the 7.2's and the 3.6's for that matter and lrsky has his. Neither one of you is right or wrong. When someone solicits your opinion you then have the right to give your opinion. How much credence one places on that opinion is up to that individual. I have determine through experience that when one gives a strong opinion one way or the other there is usually an agenda associated with that opinion sometimes hidden sometimes not.
I personnally have enjoyed an continue to enjoy my 3.6's. I would assume the 7.2's would have a similar sonic signiture and that I would enjoy them as well. Although I will admit I have not listened to them extensively. Whether or not they represent good value is up to the consummer not someones opinion. The market place will ultimately determine the answer to that question. |
I personally was trying to give a helpful response, when it seemed to me that I was blind sided, with what appeared to be a nasty comment questioning my honesty. One doesn't have to be sensitive to think that someone is being smug, suggesting that I am lying about something that may have been misunderstood, or mispoken seven years ago.
My perspective came from watching the speaker, every day, inside the factory, seeing measurements, hearing them develop into something, (whether some on the thread here like it or not, being irrelevant). It was, at least an insider's viewpoint, having had discussions with the actual designer, his goals, and his tribulations in trying to make a great speaker etc.
So mine was not just a random view, based entirely on speculation. I went south when I said they are 'fairly good', which was vague.
I know that I have heard them sound pretty damn good, when driven with Grypon electronics. At Nicholson's HiFi in Nashville, TN, even people who had never particularly like the THIEL's were pretty amazed at the sound achieved with a simple, albiet expensive integrated from Denmark.
The principal complaint I have is their dynamic compression in the middle range. But every speaker out there has an Achilles heel.
MANY people LOVE the 3.6, and as I mentioned, Kevin Hayes, President of VAC, and a friend, finds them terrific, and likes them for what he considers to be their accuracy.
The guy I referenced at Dreamworks likes them, but was frustrated at their propensity to blow in the midrange.
If you like 'em that's great, and I can't disagree, "spinich, sour kraut". Love it or not. All THIEL's sound similar to a degree that for me they are easily identifiable. I also do not like the Tweeter, overlay, which, again, to me, IMHO, gives them a 'bright' sound. The CS 5i which I owned had more 'midrange offset', and, as I refer to it, 'image density'-- and to me they sounded fuller in the mids, so I liked them better.
On the most positive side, THIEL comprises an honest, hard working group of people which will never please every musical taste, but I can tell you this--they cut 'seconds', that is what most people would call 'B' stock, in half and put them in the dumpster, so they will never appear on the market, 'out the back door' so to speak.
That takes strength of conviction, and dedication.
I was very proud to travel all over the United States, to represent them, as they were, and are honorable people. Again, is everyone going to like their stuff, no,that would be impossible. But they do the industry proud with their work ethic, and commitment to improving each new product they present.
One of the toughest things about this business is the ease, with which someone can rain on your product parade. They can slice and dice virtually anything apart, and since this is opinion based to such a large degree, who can say that they are wrong?
I am happy that you like your 3.6's. Know this they were hand crafted by a real dedicated group of hard workers. That counts for something. |
