What Sonically is the Difference between a $1,500 CD Player and a $10K-$25K One?
Well, in these day & age anyone should first consider a SSD-HD as a source. My Weiss MAN-301 plays Music with a focus and a pace that my Esoteric X-05 cannot match. The HD storage is a SSD by Samsung, and FW800 cables connect the HD to the Weiss. Both the balanced analog and the SPDIF digital output of the Esoteric are vastly inferior to the balanced Weiss digital output, as played into a Benchmark DAC3 DX. This is it for my ears and auditory cortex |
My 2010 CDP sounds great which at the time cost 1K~1.5K. I have listened to TT and other CDP setups costing 10K, 20K, 30K, 40K, and even more and I am very happy with my CDP setup. The new model of this CDP costs 1K more but I haven’t listened to it as yet. Guess I am happy with my current CDP setup, although the CDT (a cheap Sony unit) could be better. I also have an older 1996 CDP setup (cost about 4.5K) which is also sounds great (perhaps a little better with less features). So I have been enjoying CDP/digital since then and I listen to a variety of music genres. I also have 3 TTs but rarely listen to them. The source and source setup is your choice and it is good to have choices, enjoy. |
A good signal processing engineer, if they are truthful, will tell you that all decent modern CD players have little difference in measured signal output characteristics. Modern analysis gear can measure things you could never hear. However, things like dynamic range and other characteristics do vary. I doubt very seriously there is any significant audible difference between $1500 and $25000 players. Build quality, looks, etc, sure. I work in defense and we use A/D -D/A converters, quality amps, etc, all the time. Modern devices are cheap and perform extremely well. I suspect the truth is (and I’ll get flame sprayed) you are paying a huge markup and the cost of low production quantity components, rather than greatly elevated sound quality. I don’t profess to have golden ears, but I can hear differences in some gear readily. But when you get to a certain level of quality (meaning not Target level components) there is precious little difference in electronics. I do not include speakers in this since they are both “instruments” and components and can have unique sound qualities. |
Find a dealer with a satisfaction guaranty and compare the units in your own home and in your own system is my conclusion.. Opinions and recommendations will be all over the map.. There are too many variables in systems and environments, not to mention the audio experience is subjective.. Listening in your system and in your home is the only way I know of to find truth for the customer. Forums quickly turn into "makes no difference and you are waisting money" to "makes the world a better place to be, and my unit was a godsend".. Either way you need to hear for yourself.. Magazines, forums and audio shows can help people find interesting gear to evaluate, but other than that, the opinions on most any topic, are so inconsistent to be useless.. You can read 1000s of responses and end up right where you started without a clue, until its in your home and system. Thats just a humble opinion and you know what they say about opinions... In your home, in your system. Trust your ears. The rest is irrelevant.. The BS marketing and, I can hear better than you do, down to the chocolatey sound of a copper wire is all fine, although almost unless when buying audio.. Only way to sort the BS is with your own ears, in a known system and environment like home. Surely people give honest opinions, I'm just saying that a consensus on a subjective subject is not likely to happen.. |
The blithely made responses from roberjerman and others are an illustration of what is wrong with chat rooms - often no context for the comments, evidence of limited experience by the writers, unproductive negativity and often no humble opinion. Julian Hirsch, the famous (some would say infamous) reviewer from Stereo Review magazine back in its day was often quoted as saying there was no difference in the sound between properly functioning amplifiers. He never commented on the so-called quote during his tenure as a reviewer but he was interviewed after he retired and corrected the misunderstanding by saying he had said HE could not hear any difference. It is absurd to claim there is no difference in the sound from a Sony Discman versus a Theta transport and d to a converter just because YOU can not perceive the difference. For the record, I have been in the audio industry from fifty years as of this September and have a lot of experience and in my experience I have never heard two CD players that sound identical even if similar in price. Remember, a CD player "makes up" all the sound at its outputs as it sees fit through the complex conversion and filtering process fraught with design pitfalls that are expensive to address in the design. (And there is no music on a CD.) Also for the record I have a rule of thumb that in order to make a categorically better sounding component the price will often be nearly double the price because you can't just make a whiff of a change but need to raise the level of all the subsystems in the component. Thus the price of a better sounding component gets higher rather quickly as you go on an expedition to find "the best." Such is life. |
So much to say here. I’ll avoid the direct comparison because that is very brand dependent and no one has heard most stuff. but the question"what makes one better" is, to me easier to answer. A CD player, end-to-end has many components, and many of those are analog or have analog components - including those before the DAC! My broadest comment is to migrate from CDs to files, and play them out over USB. For me, using ALAC/FLAC, either ROON or Bitperfect streams sound substantially better than the original CD - played through the same DAC and equipment. In my experience, the best sound and lowest noise requires running my streaming hardware (and OLD macbook pro) from its battery, not plugged in, sigh. Why better? Likely jitter. A CD transport following the standards probably puts out SPDIF, and a cheap transport - or even a good one - will have some timing degradation. Note as i have blogged about, SPDIF makes the source (e.g.: that cheap-o CD player) the clock. Your $10k DAC takes jitter form the source. USB turns this around and simply sends bits to a buffer, where they are re-clocked by the DAC, or can and should be. Once you have the bits in the DAC portion of the chain one must re-clock very precisely and eliminate noise, both of which contribute to jitter. Jitter, changes the X-crossing point of the reconstructed musical wave and therefore is a plain, old analog distortion. no audiophile magic necessary here. next come all sorts of noise and power supply related opportunities for distortion and of course, the reconstruction filter and analog preamp that is the end of a DAC’s internal functional chain. So if you think capacitors, preamps etc make a difference guess what, you have several of each in there. They must be good. Bottom line, there are lots of places a transport and DAC can mess up sound. The chip architecture, which most focus on, is probably the least. Now, just to contradict myself, i have four DACs and have had the chance to borrow several more in my very revealing system. From a Schiit Mido3 (the best $99 DAC i can imagine) to a Theta DSPro/G2 to a ridiculously re-worked MSB (all rework my own designs) these do NOT sound the same - so the comparison of the cheapo to the Theta simply proved that someone can’t hear or has a mediocre system. Ar these differences night and day, awful vs glorious? No! That’s a huge issue in this field/hobby, crazy exaggerations. But the differences are real and manifest themselves even more over long periods of time. My gold test is always "can I go back without missing component X?" BTW i heard the effect of a $40 amazon sourced Toslink-to-coax SPDIF adapter. You just cannot imagine ho distorted it was. and I have pics of the resulting, ugly wave when i used it in a test jig with test tones (files) and a ’scope. UGLY! Clearly visible jitter to the naked eye! Step function jaggies in the sine wave! Ugly! Hop this helps G |
A BLIND 10 DAC TEST will be performed Saturday August 24th, 11-3pm at Acoustic Designs in Scottdale, Arizona courtesy of the Arizona Audio Video Club. $10 admission.
Attendees will hear them blind 3 played thru SAE amp.Preamp and Focal Sopra 3s in a custom built Room holding 20 people per session. RSVP @ AZAVClub.com. You Are Invited !!!!!! |
Choosing my Marantz CD6005 was a two part decision 1. Price /performance and 2. CD’s don’t last. I am careful with my gear, and despite that I have many CD’s out of 400 or so that just wont play - not just on fussy hi-fi but in the standard car CD player. I have LP’s bought 50 years ago that play perfectly. So, my conclusion is to get a good, cheap CD player and make my vinyl the prime listening device.Gathering thoughts about digital music and have about 120GB saved, just confused as to delivery as it does seem to still be the wild west with massive prices on high end. |
"...what makes a CD player (other than build components) 10x more costly..."Someone's willingness to pay for it. Parts rarely account for such a tremendous difference. Having said that, more expensive things have, in my experience, sounded better every time. Whatever that "better" is. It must be something in engineering, but I suspect the crucial part is DAC. |
"I have LP’s bought 50 years ago that play perfectly."Have you ever changed the stylus? "I have many CD’s out of 400 or so that just wont play - not just on fussy hi-fi but in the standard car CD player"That is what happened to me when CD player's laser started dying. Are the CDs that did not last original/bought ones or you burned them yourself? Those burned do get messed up after a while. I do not have 50 year old CDs, but some are approaching 30 and last I checked they were fine. |
"My $5 Sony Walkman CD player outperforms any $10,000 CD player. You just have to know what you’re doing, that’s all."Apparently, you do not know what you are doing with $10 000 CD player, that's all. If looking at eBay, there is currently no Sony Walkman CD player that would set you back only $5. Shipping ruins it. |
Look y’all I heard the solutions 540 after I heard the luxman d06 and the Luxman was no slouch but the soulution player is the best I have heard in my life. I think it’s 35k. It sounds analog, natural, open with big images. Lots of air ,space, timbre. However you have to have great equipment as well in the rest of your system. I suspect some commenters may have not experienced the mid to high end systems. You can’t out this player in a 10k system and reap its real benefits. I have owned a 10k system and it was good but as I grew in the hobby I was able to get a 40k system that now allows me to hear more detail, space, air and dimensionality. Your gear has to be able to assist in reproducing the great sound benefits. |
What no one seems to be talking about & is essential to realizing huge qualitative gains by spending a lot more money on digital - is if that money is put to excellent use in designing a truly outstanding analog stage. It’s far rarer then everyone likes to assume. I always was bored silly by the very detailed Berkely ref until they did a thorough redesign of it. If its a really well-designed tube one then you have something really special. Zanden did an excellent job here (although the digital section was slightly compromised by their choice of chip). Their new DAC & chip could very well be fabulous though. Micromega’s best tube Dac is also supposed to be wondrous. Some others too. Just don’t listen to a quality record playing system of the same money as expensive digital. You'll become one of the many you see selling expensive digital gear because (as they say in their ads) they’re going back to vinyl. What you don’t know won’t (perceptibly) hurt you here. |
All CD players throughout history have been plagued by fatal problems. While it may be true that some advances have been made in CD playback nobody has solved the problems of scattered laser light, seismic vibration, and the various vibrations produced by both the CD player and the CD itself. If you don’t mind the missing information, the crappy bass performance and the compressed sound, more power to you. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “What missing information, crappy bass performance and compressed sound? My system sounds fabulous!” 🤗 |
These kind of questions are sadly just going to do no service to the person who is asking. I am sure you are asking in pure hearted curiosity. Unfortunately you are wading into a battlefield occupied by several armies. There are certainly many CD players that are over priced but to say that all high priced players are flim flammery is to dismiss the costs of development, testing, parts quality, manufacturing, distribution, etc. It is a complex question that can really be understood best by auditioning a lot of equipment yourself. In my case, I have heard a lot of stuff in a lot of different settings to come to my purchasing decisions. I would just advise setting a budget and listening to as much as you can (Never mind the price) then settling for what you feel hits the mark in your range. For me, I ended buying something that was about a third more than my original budget because it just sounded worth the money. You can read all of these posts and get a feel for all the current hardline attitudes and then make your decisions. My decision has always been to trust my ears. Mostly they haven’t steered me wrong. If they do it is usually because I didn’t listen long enough or carefully enough without distractions. |
I had a Bryston BCD-1($2,750) and found it superior to what i had heard before. It's shot and my limited funds have gone into analog playback instead. Though i would trade into the Bryston BCD-3, $3,750, ($2,200) with returned BCD-1. I heard a $15k disc player at a friend's which sounded far superior to the Bryston. Zero shortcomings, very analog. I don't have a DAC, next time some money shows up I may dive deeper into analog by adding a second tonearm for a mono cartridge and phono stage. Leaving digital out of my listening room. |
glupson - Correct that CDs don't fail very often, the laser is usually at fault. 1 or 2 out of 7,000 CDs made since 1984 have failed me. I make it a point to clean the laser every year (1,000 hours) or sooner. It makes a difference with 80+ minute CDs (London classical reissues sometimes go to 85 minutes). Elizabeth and roxy54 - I 100% agree. The mastering is numero uno in the resulting quality of vinyl and CD. Just last night, I played Turandot/Mehta on a London CD but when the chorus came in, it was a hashy mess. I put the LP Decca version on and bliss, full, detailed sound. (Why do so many of my London opera CDs sound like poor quality remastering compared to the LPs whereas London's mono classical sound superior to their LPs)? I went through about 40 used CD players from 1985 to 2000 (mostly average quality/$500-$1500 Denon, Sony, Yamaha, Marantz etc.) until I found the EAR Acute 1 in 2007. Audio nirvana with NOS tubes and cabling. My friend upgraded his CD only system with a COS Engineering DAC using a Pioneer Elite DV05 as a transport. Yes, it's got superior resolution. I do not have the problems geokaitt claims CDs have with well recorded and mastered CDs. My sound engineered audioroom cost twice as much as my main audio system but it's worth it (only an external tweak here and there, no big change ever again). I have friends who are CD or vinyl only listeners. Funny how they both enjoy my quad front end system (plus RR and 78s). CDs are just easier to use than LPs. |
Well, couldn't resist dipping my toe in here. 1st let me say my system is modest by audio mag standards, but it sounds good in my room. I have both a decent TT and several hundred albums, and I do love the analog sound. That said, I also have 3 disc players: a Sony EX5400es and an Oppo BDP 95, both modified by ModWright, and a Sony 555es changer, modded by Matt Anker at the now-defunct SACDmods, who was then at OSU but is now in the Navy. I listened to each of these players before and after modding, and I must say the difference is audible. Each was an excellent player out of the box, but the mods take it to a new level. I won't bore you with the details of the mods, you can see those on ModWright's site, but a well-recorded redbook CD or SACD on any of these produces delightful results. Different, but all good to my ear. And as between vinyl and CD, yep, I like them both. Different, but good. The mods took each of these players from an original cost of around $1500 (a little less for the Oppo) to around $3500. Well worth it IMHO. Would 10X more produce 10X "better" sound? No, because the law of diminishing returns applies in spades where audio is concerned. Better, probably, but possibly not audible. And we must also consider that there are many links in the audio chain, from the plug in the wall to the room. Any weak link in that chain (including and especially the quality of the recording) would make it difficult if not impossible to assess the difference in any one component. And compatibility with your own system is another factor to be considered. Anyway, it's a fun hobby, and it stays fun as long as you find something you like and stick with it instead of chasing the elusive absolute sound. Remember it's really all about the music, not the gear. I think I'll go listen to some tunes now. Vinyl or CD, and which player... hmmm, maybe I'll flip a coin. |
"All CD players throughout history have been plagued by fatal problems. While it may be true that some advances have been made in CD playback nobody has solved the problems of scattered laser light, seismic vibration, and the various vibrations produced by both the CD player and the CD itself. If you don’t mind the missing information, the crappy bass performance and the compressed sound, more power to you. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “What missing information, crappy bass performance and compressed sound? My system sounds fabulous!” 🤗" Sure geoffkait, they all sound like garbage except yours. |
I am enjoying many of the posts here from the usual contributors. One thing, I would like to clarify is that while there may be differences between the $1500 and $15K CD players (or transports and DACs...which IMO would be the better way to go) the differences, if any depend on the rest of YOUR setup and YOUR room, which will be different than the showroom and anyone else’s setup and room. For instance, bring in that $15K transport and DAC and hook them up with stock cables and cables and connect them to a noisy electrical system and cheap power strips and I would be willing to bet that you won’t hear as big a difference as if you used good cables and had proper power handling and noise/EMI mitigation. So it is not just about the CD player or transport and DAC. They don’t operate in a vacuum. Attention should be paid to getting the rest of the system and your power management to an equally good level. Many of us here know this. But I don’t think it has been mentioned here yet and so it’s not as simple as a for instance comparing a top end CD player vs a good transport and top end DAC. The rest of the system and power handling matter perhaps just as much or maybe even more. |
Good point! I made the same point five days ago. I call it the Hierarchy of Sound. All CD players regardless of price are subject to the deleterious effects of vibration and background stray laser light. Therefore, one would be better off buying an inexpensive player and fixing those problems than simply investing beaucoup bucks on a player. There are obviously many other related issues such as interconnects, power cord, fuse, external DAC, etc. No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started off with more in the beginning. - old audiophile axiom A rich audiophile has about as much chance of entering Audio Nirvana as a camel 🐪 has of passing through the eye 👁 of a needle. - old audiophile axiom |
"...and background stray laser light."As long as it stays in the background, problem does not exist. When going astray, one inevitably goes away. Therefore, straying laser light would be beneficial. 🐪💗💗💗 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvkoloNYZE4 |
Elizabeth said: "Well MY digital is great, and so is my analog." Voice of reason. Some of my digital -- even redbook, is glorious. Much of it is terrible. Some of my albums are glorious, some are terrible. HUGE POINT HERE - often its the SAME recording that is glorious in both formats. Case in point: "Ella and Louis", Verve recorded with two mics onto a Studer A-77 in like 1961. Recordings matter. Mixing matters. remixing and digital masterings matter. Format, to me, is less important if all the above are done correctly. Sadly, they are not, and early digital recording, mastering and pre-eq was just terrible. No mystery why those sounded as they did. KEY POINT #2: both formats are capable of excellent sound. Perfect? Of course not. Neither are LPs. Now, back to the OP’s question - which was basically around the incremental value from $1500 to $15,000. This is a subjective matter, and a slippery slope. Just as racers inevitably wind up with dedicated race cars, trailer, trucks, etc., so many audiophiles wind up with crazy-costly systems. I only hope they are well chosen and enjoyed. but its likely not necessary - I’ve heard very good sound from iTunes, Bitperfect and a Schiit BiFrost Multi-bit. Above i noted where some differences can certainly exist. I’m currently evaluating how to hit the 80/20 rule on many of them. My personal opinion is that the biggest differences today, especially for the dollar spent, come from speakers and sources, both analog and digital. You can get really, really good electronics for more modest spend (note: i design and [hope to again] sell electronics, I’m stabbing myself in the back). Note that "modest" might range form $1000 - $6 or 7k, and some speakers are very challenging loads, while others can be driven by an NAD 3020 (like Vandy 2s). While cables no doubt impact sound i find the benefit/$$ ratio wildly bad - better spend that money on speakers or DACS (or a great TT/arm/cart). Oh, that’s still a tough area of electronics - RIAA stages for low output cartridges... |
I went to a demo by the guy from stereo magazine in the padoo room and he did proper back to back comparisons of the same recording cd v vinyl. Vinyl sounded better to my ears. He explained that when a stylus moves in a groove it is like the thickening of a line on a seismograph- it is actually a distortion that we like. |
itsjustme I agree. What bothers me is that my London/Decca opera LPs sound so much cleaner/less distorted than the comparable CDs, most of them digitized in the 1990s (just compare the choral parts of Turandot/Mehta-the CD is distorted). I don't have that problem with any other classical label (7,000 CDs in my collection). I have many wonderful 1980s jazz CDs from Contemporary and Japanese CDs. I also have terrible/awful remasterings of mono RCA opera from the last few years (the 1980s transfers sound 90% as good as the original LPs, the new ones have cut off bass and highs, forward bright sounding mids, compression-yuk!). Many Amazon reviewers seconded that conclusion. Luckily, I have many Kevin Gray remasterings of all genres in both LP and CD formats. For my listening pleasure, I spent a ton of money on my listening room/acoustics. Next is the cost of my analog front end. Digital front ends can sound great even if they aren't expensive nowadays, unlike the 50-75 CD players from the 80s and 90s that I tried. Speakers are very important in the chain and lucked out using great older speakers rather than new ones at a pittance of new price. I get SOTA cabling from a manufacturer as a beta tester and the rest of the electronics are custom made at a low price as well (my second CD only system costs $5k yet sounds better than 90%+ of audio show gear-simple but perfectly matched tube gear and 25 year old speakers). Matching good sounding components is the key to good sound after accounting for the big elephant in the room-the room itself. I use Hallographs and SR HFTs to tune the room perfectly. Those are items generally not found in audio shows or audio salons. Too bad as their cost relative to their merits is well worth it. One can use lesser equipment in a great room but ruin great equipment in a poor sounding room. My two bits. |
It is all about pounding your chest when you have your buddies over to show them your new stuff. It is then very important to tell them what you spent so they can all be extremely impressed. Then ask one of your buddies to do a blind testing between the old and new CD player to see how much difference you can hear for the $20,000 difference. Reminds me of the story, "THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHS"! Then you buddies turn to you as ask, "HOW MUCH DID YOU PAY FOR THAT THING"? Kind of reminds me of the Smuckers commercial. If it's Smuckers it has to be good. |
My electronics/cabling manufacturing friend got a COS Engineering $3,000 DAC that blows away my EAR Acute which is twice the price. It took about 13 years since I purchased my CD player for me to hear the improvement in a DAC since most under $5,000 DACs I've heard are no better (and sound less analog-like) since 2006. The COS unit is remarkable (based on a slimmed down $10,000 pre-amp/DAC unit). Amazing and affordable compared to the high end DACs costing $10-50,000 I've heard at shows. |
