What should you hear?


I'm new to the hobby and curious what type of imaging sound stage you should hear.  I have a pair of Vandersteen 2ce signatures and they sound great.  What I find however is that the imaging, sound stage is very dependent on the recording.   

Norah Jones?  She sounds like she's sitting right in the room.  It's amazing.  

One I'm particularly interested in learning more about is Brubek's Take Five.   The saxophone images great.  Sounds dead center.  The piano however is clearly coming from the right hand speaker and the drums are clearly coming from the left.  Is this typical? 

Thanks for your input and tolerating a "newbie" question. 
mvrooman1526

OP, What you just described is the very definition of sound stage to me. The recording engineers will pan instruments left to right within a recording. You will find on many pop and rock records that the kick drum, snare drum, vocals, and bass guitar are dead center with the other instuments panned around to create space and separation.

They will also make certain instruments louder or softer so they seem closer or farther away from you. Instruments with more reverb may also sound more distant, which helps to create the illusion of a 3D sound stage.

What you described in Norah Jones vs. Dave Brubeck is 100% correct. That is the way the engineers mixed those recordings.

Cheers,Joe

Another quick example is Oscar Peterson - Night Train. Oscar Peterson is mixed dead center, while Ed Thigpen is panned to the right speaker, and Ray Brown left.
What I find however is that the imaging, sound stage is very dependent on the recording. 

Right. Mono recordings everything is in a sort of sphere in the middle. Some recordings are flat, others deep. Sometimes vocals are centered, sometimes off to one side or the other. Entirely recording dependent.

Norah Jones? She sounds like she's sitting right in the room. It's amazing.
 
If you say so. Never could get into her myself.
One I'm particularly interested in learning more about is Brubek's Take Five.
 The saxophone images great. Sounds dead center. The piano however is clearly coming from the right hand speaker and the drums are clearly coming from the left. Is this typical?


Been a while but that sounds just about right to me. The cymbals I want to say are left and above the drums just as they should be. Piano I can't remember if this is one where the piano stays put or moves left to right depending which end of the keyboard it is. At all times when one side is playing you should hear the room acoustic "light up" on the other side. 

The thing to listen for with imaging is not so much where things are, as that is recording dependent, but how palpably real they are and how clearly each individual sound source is distinct and separate from the rest. This also varies from recording to recording. Of course it does. Everything does.


Play with some room treatments. I have 2CE Sigs, and that helped out the soundstage and imaging a lot, even on recordings that were mastered in an extreme R&L way, as was unfortunately typical for some early stereo recordings, such as your old Brubeck. Even more extreme are early Charlie Parker recordings, John Coltrane, Miles, or the worst, the early Beatles recordings. Some of this extreme separation you just have to live with. So yes, as already stated, much is how the music was recorded and mastered. Newer music typically does not have the same issue as older recordings, and the center image is almost always ‘spot on’. But you want, if at all possible, the sound eminating from ‘the stage’ the same way the musicians were in the recording (unfortunately much modern music was never recorded this way in the first place, as a ‘live performance’, as it was all recorded at different times). The ‘live stage’ effect is the ideal so the instruments don’t sound like they are coming directly from the speaker face, but more side to side. A good recording helps, and more poorly recordings can be helped with speaker placement and acoustical treatments. The 2CE’s are very finicky about placement to achieve this goal. Been there, done that.

Begin playing with some acoustical treatment. I find in my case, the 2CE’s are benefited more from diffusion vs absorption, have both, but that may just be my room. You can do this cheaply by getting some foam or rigid insulation and tape panels of it temporarily in various locations to find what may work best in your room. There is basic info available to this as well all over the internet or on YouTube. As far as diffusion panels, that is tougher to to get something cheap to temporarily use. I actually found some sculpted 18”x18” architectural ‘Tiles’, taped them together behind, and then applied them to my walls with 2 sided foam 3M ‘tape’.
@mvrooman1526 - That particular Brubeck recording is likely supposed to sound that way. It is the way the stereo mix was mastered. It is referred to as hard panning. This means a particular instrument was mixed only (hard) to the left speaker or only (hard) to the right speaker. Another instrument (or vocalist) could be mixed equally in the left and the right channels, creating an image centered between the speakers.

The hard panning of Brubeck's piano is actually mentioned in a thread on the Steve Hoffman site. Here's a link. Read the whole thread if you have the time, but the Brubeck mention is in post # 28:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/stereo-hard-panning-love-it-or-hate-it.123731/

Enjoy your new hobby.