HD is dead in case you didn't hear!
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Charles: it would seem to be the only logical solution if Toshiba wants to build a DVD player..
maybe they can show Sony how to add an Ethernet port, do Picture in Picture, Allow updates over the web, and show them how to get the price under $400....
Or Toshiba could get with one of the online companies to start doing 1080p downloads to appliances like AppleTV, Vudu, XBox360, etc.... via a piece of hardware...
I own a HD-DVD and I won't be upgrading to Bluray as disc's are too expensive and the players are crap (2.0 version needs to come out) because they will be door stops because they can't be upgraded. The PS3 is the only bluray player worth looking at because at least you can sell it to a gamer later.. and besides the Sony bluray players don't look as good as the Toshiba HD-DVD players doing upscaling of regular definition movies..
Some of you keep revelling in the fact that Toshiba lost, but now Sony can release crap and limit what crap they can release on bluray and keep prices high, which is something are amazing it!!! GO SACD, MiniDisc, DAT, Beta....
HighSpeed downloading and Movie on Demand is the future...
Rwwear: You missed my point... Toshiba built under $400 HD-DVD players that looked stunning, they weren't crap! They had more features than any SONY BLURAY player or any other manufacture's bluray player. The other point it that until someone brings out an under $200 player mainstream america is not going to adopt HD anything.... They want MP3 prices and are quite happy with their HD Cable and Direct TV because they don't have to pay for hardware.
Sony, Samsung (Class action suit for their 1.0 players is currently happening), Panasonic, Pioneer etc... are all more expensive and don't have even an ethernet jack that the $100-150 HD-DVD players had..
SONY IS SETTING THE STANDARDS FOR BLURAY AND UNTIL THEY FULLY DEFINE 2.0 (looking like end of year) ALL BLURAY PLAYERS will be lacking the hardware that Toshiba HD-DVD players had.. the only one that can be upgraded right now it the Sony Playstation 3. PIP, internet streaming etc... HD space for downloadable content...are all missing.
So no other manufacture can add features or make better players until Sony authorizes it.... Just like the delays in SACD or yesteryears..
The history of all consumer electronics products is that with time they get better and the price drops. The computer I bought 10 years ago cost 10 times more than the one I bought last yeat and doesn't hold a candle to it. Blu-ray will be no different, Sony bashers notwithstanding. As for downloads, assuming bandwidth catches up and makes download times reasonable, it is unlikely that the high-res sound formats available on Blu-ray will accompany the downloads. This will be particularly bothersome when it comes to concerts. A-goner's should be concerned about that.
I had no dog in this hunt, but you are sounding a sour note. Prices will fall when all companies, including Toshiba, come to market with their own BluRay players and the format becomes a commodity just like SD DVD players are now, e.g. a model is available at every corner drug store for 50 bucks. If Sony won the right to drive the schedule for this to happen, then give them their props. The reason why two channel audio is somewhat immune to this silliness is because, in the big picture really, the stakes are so low.
Some companies will execute lower cost versions better than others (my bets are on OPPO), and high end rigs that actually work and do everything but brush your teeth will hit the market even sooner. In any case I can see all the HT buffs agonizing over whether we should use the digital converters in our BluRay player, or in our Processors. "I think the BD's HQV Reon-VX has slightly better reds, but the 7.1 sound stage and attack is a little more dynamic using the processor's DTS-HD® Master Audio compared with the BD's THX Ultra2, don't you?" Wish everyone luck threading that needle.
PS - I went to Onkyo's website yesterday and noted they are touting a $899 HD DVD player as the bees knees. Ouch!
Knownothing: Sour Note? I bought a HD-DVD with all the future Sony Bluray features 1.5 years ago for the cost of the cheapest bluray player currently..... Progress is suppose to make things get better and cheaper... Sony did neither.... Now the consumer is going to have to pay and I'll have to wait another year to buy a HD bluray player that has these features... My HD-DVD player is a great SD upscaling DVD player so I have no regrets about buying my player or movies. I enjoy it with my extra large SD DVD library.
Sorry that I like the fact that you could buy dual layer HD-DVD's that could be played in a factory car DVD system or my old laptop with a DVD drive... when do you think a bluray factory car system is going to come out to watch Disney's latest movie for the kids??? No they want you to buy the movie twice!!
Bluray and HD-DVD video quality is a toss up depending on the implementation and the mastering.. So the consumer wins with either..
$500 players don't benefit the consumer industry for early adoption...I hope Oppo kicks out a Bluray player and doesn't get killed by Sony's licensing costs..
As far as video processors I think HT buffs are more so agonizing over which receiver can pull off the HD soundtracks over HDMI 1.3a without having pops, clicks, and incompatibilities with video display devices... The whole HDMI HDCP copy protection scheme has really left a bitter taste in the mouth of the consumer... look at all the DVI input TV's that can't accept Bluray or HD-DVD because the HDCP isn't compatible... NOT COOL!
Like I said in other threads I'll just buy a Playstation 3 for bluray and at least I can upgrade it to the latest standards versus all the doorstop bluray players that have been sold for the last 2 years that can't be upgraded to the upcoming 2.0 spec, much less the recent 1.1 spec. It won't be the best of video or audio but it will be good enough to play rented bluray movies while I look for who is going to win the online movie playing..
Make fun of the Onkyo at $899 when you can buy a top sony BDP-S2000ES bluray for $1299... That top sony es unit will not be upgradable to the new bluray 2.0 spec because it doesn't have a ethernet jack for network connectivity as required by their own spec...
As someone who's worked in the computer industry since 1980, I have seen time and again ad nauseum that there is a big difference between announcing and delivering.
Companies like IBM and Sony "announce" to freeze the customer base from drifting to another solution. For them, an announcement is like a Tom Brady pump fake.
Case in point: Look how Sony's announcement of their dodgy 2-layer 50GB technology kept customers from embracing Toshiba's 30GB dual-layer disc for the elegant solution it was.
I see your point Cyto but if HD DVD was so good why did so many of the first ones not work? Yes, they were cheaper to build but that's because the technology was dated. As far as SACD support it would be nice but a separate laser would probably be needed. And would drive the cost up. HD DVD players didn't play SACDs either.
Rwwear: you don't give up? The first ones had issues just like the first bluray players (which were released months later) 1.5 years ago, the differences were that the first HD-DVD players were software based with a P4 2.5Ghz intel chip in them and 512meg of ram, so Toshiba could upgrade them over the web as different manufactures of HD-DVD disc implemented these newer features. They were not cheaper.. Toshiba lost $400+ for each player they sold so they could further the technology in the consumers hands.. instead of waiting to perfect the technology and create dedicated IC's for the player which is how the 2nd generation HD-DVD players were and the first gen Bluray players.. The difference was the first gen Bluray players can't be fixed... Profile 1.0.. Samsung is getting a class action suit about profile 1.1 disc's that won't play. The first gen bluray disc's used Mpeg2 compression and looked awful but the early Bluray players couldn't do the more advanaced compression so they actually need the whole 50gig blueray just to fit a movie because of the poor compression... Artifacts from Mpeg2 caused early movies and players to look barely better than SD DVD's. Look at the reviews.
My reference to SACD was another SONY technology that they killed by keeping such a tight reign on the licensing of the technology to 3rd party's to include in players and more importantly to master the SACD disc. Sony limited both once again... And once again if Sony hadn't developed the SACD different laser requirements instead of adopting DVD-A which held more and could do video also... then there wouldn't be a need for another laser... nice of you to make excuses for Sony.
My point is yes HD-DVD lost because Sony paid Warner 400-500 million dollars to go exclusive Bluray, and everyone else filed suit and dumped HD-DVD.....
Brilliant marketing on the part of Sony and Bluray.
Great so lets move on and see if Sony will invest in Bluray technology as Toshiba already did years ago.... Sony is playing catchup.........
Sony makes money on the licensing of SACD and Bluray and that's why they have fought so much! They could also control copy protection schemes to protect their movie inventory from being copied (That lasted a couple months..) On the other hand Toshiba has been making that licensing money from DVD because they founded that technology. Sony only released SACD because their patent on the CD technology ran out and therefore they couldn't collect licensing on each and every CD manufactured...
Meanwhile the Joe average consumer is confused on the sidelines waiting... some will adopt others will say DVD is good enough and cheaper..
Back to the original Posters question of what's Toshiba's follow up SD upscaling player??? I haven't seen anything on the rumor sites so who knows at this point..
I will cede you the point about which format was better and when. As I said before, I have no horse in the race. My main points were and still are:
1. Now that Sony has won, they will do some algebra on the price to volume balance for selling licenses for machines and many more disks to many more people, and figure out how to maximize their earnings. This I think will lead to costs of BD machines of equal performance and improved usability falling from where they are now.
2. Toshiba will be one of the manufacturers selling lower cost BD machines in the not to distant future because they are in the video equipment manufacturing business and retailers will want to sell BD players.
3. There is an incredible level of redundancy of high level digital converters from DVD players to processors to TVs, making it a somewhat complex task to test all possible combinations in search of audio and video Nirvana. In some cases it is very difficult to tell a difference, driving people like us to distraction buying and moving wires around. I can see why some manufacturers are starting to sell digital-out-only transports for video.
4. I really do think Onkyo is saying "Ouch!".
Cyto you seem to forget about Toshiba paying millions to Paramount to drop BluRay. Hell HD was even backed by Microsoft, that in itself is reason enough to drop it.
Sure Sony has made many mistakes. And I am not an apologist for them. Their quality control is abysmal and they have cheapened the ES line. I haven't purchased a Sony product in years and don't intend to anytime soon.
Sony lost around a 100.00 on every PS3 they sold. SACD hasn't done well for the simple reason it did not sell well and had to compete wiyh DVDA.
Maybe Toshiba can go back to selling military secrets to the Russians.
Leedistad: Yeah, I read that Wall Street Journal interview http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450428955606405.html?mod=moj_todays_paper from the CEO of Toshiba yesterday stating they would continue to make upscaling DVD players and invest more in downloadable technology.
"WSJ: Will you try to play a role in the video-downloading market?
Mr. Nishida: That's what we're hoping. We've been developing technologies in this area already, but now that we don't have the HD DVD business, I want to put even more energy into that."