What Power Cords for Rel S510 Subs?

@ryder my Audioquest Dragon power cord powering my amp costed me more than my recent purchase of my B&W 802 D2 speakers, purchased used but in mint condition. I specifically chose these after finding I wasn’t a fan of any new speakers in my area (including $50k speakers). Seems crazy but the Dragon cord was worth it.

I have a sinking feeling the same principle applies to subs, and high quality cords need to be considered…

@vonhelmholtz nice system.  I like Wilson speakers a lot.  i am not looking for bone rattling bass.  Just a bit of added support for my B&W 802's, in my large room with high ceilings.

I think how you described the setup of your Rel's is exactly how you are supposed to have them set up.  Crossover set lower to seamlessly integrate, with subtle boosting of the low end.

Are you finding your Rel's to fill in the lower frequencies sufficiently?  Or are  you finding that your Sabrina X's are still thin in their lower range, before the Rel's kick in?  Do the Rel's seem to integrate well and provide the bass energy and extension you were after, or do you think the bass could have been better somehow?

@vonhelmholtz , your cords are comparable grade to my system’s cords so I am very interested in your results.  I see your subs don’t get the best cords, but did you TRY your subs with a Sigma NR to see if there is an improvement over the venom?    Second thing I’d be curious about is if you noticed an improvement with the Venom cords over a lower grade cord?

thanks!

@jl1ny , I don’t have my Rel’s yet, I’m researching first.  I was planning to go with the Rel Baseline Blue Speakon cable, one for each sub.  
 

@andrewkelley , would you share the details of how you set up your system with the common ground block?  Very interested in how this might help and if it’s worth doing.  For what it’s worth I have no issues with ground loops at this point, all my gear is connected to a Torus RM20 on a dedicated 20A line.  My subs which I haven’t got yet will go on another dedicated line.  Maybe I should pick up a second Torus for the subs and simply connect the ground terminals of the two Torus together?  Honestly I don’t know what I’m talking about on this subject.

@vonhelmholtz I will give Dreams and Daggers a listen.  Thanks for the tip!

I don’t doubt that bass definition and speed can help with subs.  @simonmoon , I know exactly what you mean about power cords impacting ambience, soundstage depth etc.  That’s what I have heard too.  But I also found that in my case, these were the most striking and noticeable differences.  I found if you really focus, you hear pretty big differences in bass presentation as well, but it’s simply not what jumps out the most.  I even found that with some high end cables bass energy was reduced (Valhalla 2 PC).

I pretty much expect the trolls to emerge whenever posting about cables, lol!!! Trolls are part of the fun. But I also think there are some who legitimately can’t wrap their heads around how better cables can help. These folks simply are new to the discussion and can’t figure out how “the last few feet of power can make a difference when the power has travelled hundreds of miles” etc. I actually just happened on a post where someone was stating all of the usual arguments, posting links to support their case, telling everyone not to waste their money. He was not a troll, but just new to the age-old debate. Others challenged him to go hear the difference himself, and to his credit, he agreed. He clearly stated his plan for the test, and was ready to come back and say he was right. Again, to his credit, he reported back saying he clearly heard the difference a better power cord made, and indicated that he was dumbfounded as to how it could possibly make a difference. He then said “I was wrong”. Something you don’t normally hear at the end of internet debates!

So not every anti-cable poster is a troll. I completely agree it goes against common sense for a power cord to make a difference. And, don’t get me started on USB cords…. It doesn’t make any sense at all, but they make a difference! Tested the very expensive Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cord and yes it does improve the mids and treble.  Bass definition was also better, however overall bass energy was reduced.  Much like the Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord actually.  This is in comparison to my much less expensive Audioquest Diamond USB.  In the end I found the improvement to be too minimal for the silly cost, and stuck with my Audioquest’s which are decent.  Of note, the length of the cord makes a massive impact and not in the way you think.  Longer than 1m gives much, much better performance for both USB and power cords in my experience.

Thanks all - even the trolls for the amusement!

Here is another interesting story which is a good analogy to the common sense that suggests that cables should have no impact. About 20 years ago I was watching the Perseid Meteor shower, inside a house, from a very large skylight. They were the brightest I’d ever seen them. Red in colour, with illuminated smoke trails behind them. Here’s the thing: I HEARD the meteors. They made a sizzling sound, like a frying pan.

Looked on the internet and it turns out many have heard meteor “hiss”. But, scientists/astronomers stated that common sense and physics suggests that this is impossible! Meteors are too far away, and any sound they might make would trail the visual of the meteor by seconds. But that’s not the experience everyone was reporting, including me. I heard the hiss in sync with seeing each meteor.

20 years passed and I thought I’d research again. Turns out common sense conclusions of astrophysicists were wrong! Now they revealed that it is proven that meteors can make sound - just not in the way everyone thought. Turns out meteors emit radiation. And if you are near a material the radiation can interact with, it can make a hissing sound. Radiation is transmitted at the speed of light which is why the sound accompanies the visuals. This also explains why I could hear the meteors INSIDE the house. And, I was surrounded by art made of sheet metal and also a metallic large chimney for an indoor fireplace. Scientists have recorded this phenomenon audibly and by measuring the corresponding radiation.

An example where common sense and basic scientific fact got things wrong!!

Okay trolls, chow down! Don’t say I never did anything for you!!!

And to the rest of you, thanks, I am planning on using AQ Hurricanes to power my subs!

When I was like 23 a bored guy in a HiFi shop, who obviously knew I couldn’t afford anything at all in the store, did a blind test with me using stock power cords, $300 cords (which blew me away at the time that they actually existed) and a cord that costed thousands. System was Krell monoblocks feeding B&W 800 speakers.  I had never heard a system worth more than $8,000 up to that point.  Anyways, I correctly picked the right cable every time. Being able to blind test and pick the cord with 100% accuracy was all the proof / measurement that was needed.

I can still perform this test with 100% accuracy at home. Really, no other measurement matters if you can objectively hear the difference and identify the cord without knowing which cable is connected.

@1971gto455ho is simply applying common sense logic which I 100% agree with! I don’t get any troll vibes here but who knows I could be wrong. @1971gto455ho ‘s common sense is enough for them not to attempt a blind test between a stock power cord and a premium cord, on a premium and highly revealing system. If they did try this, and they have an audiophile ear, the difference would be blatant and obvious. Even my 15yo daughter can easily tell the difference in a blind test (not that she actually cares about the difference which is another matter!)

If I hadn’t been subjected to a blind test by a bored sales guy who had no intent to sell me anything (because I couldn’t afford anything) all those years ago, I’d probably be siding with all the power cord naysayers!

Whether the vendors should need to charge as much as they do for premium cords, that is another topic…  I’m not claiming to know the answer but man it seems like they must have massively high margins.  This is evidenced by the fact that it always seems, in my experience, that retailers can give bigger discounts on cords and cables than they can for anything else.

@mceljo Interesting you noticed that in the Audioquest price list too…. As I am also an ultra-geek I’ve perused that guide many times, often with a sinking feeling when I see where the prices can go (Dragon Zero + Bass biwire holy crap…).

That said, I noticed a few pricing discrepancies like you noted with the much lower priced sub cable. Also of note is where their RCA interconnect and USB and digital cords top out, which is thousands less than their top power cords and an order of magnitude lower than their top speaker cables. I actually can’t believe that their top USB cord costs less than $1k. In comparison, Nordost has USB and RCA cables that cost many, many thousands more. I believe Transparent digital cables also top out at a “reasonable” price too.

But you may be on to something. I tested the $6k Nordost Valhalla 2 USB against my $650 Audioquest top of the line Diamond USB. The Nordost was better, slightly but noticeably, in the mid and upper ranges. A bit more solid, confident and well formed. Bass was super clean, but there was less of it with the Nordost. Ultimately for that cost, I felt I could get further with other upgrades per dollar spent, and I am now perfectly happy with my Audioquest Diamond USB cables. And this is coming from someone who owns Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables and jumpers, and two Audioquest Dragon high current power cords (each of which I feel individually made a worthy difference).

Long story short, maybe Audioquest doesn’t bother with ultra mega costly cables when there are not sufficient benefits.

I did actually chase the unicorn with cabling for my main system l, and am now done with that, after testing loads of cables and driving myself and my family nuts blind AB testing many cables. It’s definitely rabbit hole that once you change one thing, it sets you down a path! Thankfully I’ve emerged from it and my system is better as a result. I now view cabling as a primary component of my system - almost as important as an amp or speakers even, that can make or break a system. I found what many others have found, that speaker cables and signal cables make the largest differences, in a few primary areas: tonal balance, transparency and speed. As you move up in grade I found them to be more revealing. Power cables I found to also impact these areas, significantly, but less so. I found that the difference moving from a middle of the range power cable to a highest end power cable adds space detail and air AROUND the vocals and tones. For me it was the difference between having your system play music vs having your system present the music in a way that seems as if the performers are in front of you in your living room. Interestingly my non-audiophile wife and daughter also noted these differences and (blindly) picked the exact same cables that I thought sounded best. My daughter said “this makes it sound like the performers are on a stage in front of us and the other one doesn’t”. The only problem is, while they clearly heard these improvements, they just didn’t care! Oh well.

Of note, in many cases more expensive cabling didn’t translate to a sound I enjoyed more. I found I didn’t care for the very pricey Audioquest speaker cables (tested Firebird biwire and I found I also didn’t care for the top end Transparent speaker wire. In some cases I found the top end of different brands to be equally good but just a different style of presentation (top power cords from Audioquest and Shunyata). And in yet other cases I found top end cords to be entirely lacking in something (Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord was very obviously missing bass energy of other cords). All verified with blind tests, and all likely results specific to my system.

Very happy I went through that process, but I’m also very glad I’m done with it now!

For me I ended up with 100% Audioquest, dragons for 2 high current cords and Hurricanes for everything else, except for speaker cables, where I went Nordost Valhalla 2. Based on this thread I’ll likely go Hurricane High Currents for the subs, which is not cheap…. Might see if I can wait and get a used pair.  Will need 3m lengths though.

@ronboco , I tested many different speaker cables and power cords, mid to top end, from Audioquest, Shunyata, Transparent, and Nordost.  Nothing came close to the Nordost Valhalla 2’s for the speaker cables.  Didn’t like the Nordost power cords, but cords from other brands were all good, with varying presentation styles.

@1971gto455ho lol, glad you are having fun…

To follow up on this thread, I finally got my Rel subwoof... I mean, "sub-bass systems". Carbon Specials.

They sound superb with their stock power cords which are currently plugged in, but I will upgrade them soon as things can always sound better. I’m going to see if I can get a pair of 3M Audioquest Thunder cords, and a pair of 3m Hurricane cords, as demos to see if the cord quality actually matters. Truly hoping it doesn’t make a difference and I can go even lower grade. Despite the fact that I am firmly on the side of power cords making a big difference that is easily and blindly discernible on a revealing enough system, now that I have a bit of experience with my Rel’s, I’m not sure power cords will matter as much for subs. I have two reasons why this is my expectation, prior to testing:

• After correctly tuning and positioning my subs, meticulously checking for correct integration and balance with my main speakers, I tried playing them at normal volume with my mains disconnected. The subs are just whispering! It’s amazing that slight of a sound makes that much difference. Given that it’s just a mere whisper of supporting bass, I can’t see how power cords matter all that much.
• The upgraded Baseline Blue Speakon high level input cables which I purchased are comparatively cheap. If the signal cables are that "cheap", it seems like it would be weird to spend much more on power cords. These signal cables are even used with Rel’s even higher grade reference speakers. I don’t hear of audiophiles going crazy on higher level input cables for high end subs, so I really don’t see power cords being all that critical for subs.

I did find an old thread where the poster claimed that upgraded power cords helped his subs, in particular and surprisingly helping the mid frequencies and vocals. I am really, really hoping this doesn’t turn out to be the case for me. I have other uses for the cash!