What percentage of audiophiles use a sub ?

I'd have to say that a good percentage of the systems that include subs that I've heard don't impress me. The bass is overblown and unnatural and doesn't much resemble the live acoustic music I enjoy.

That's not to say a sub that has been well matched to the system and properly adjusted can't help with large orchestral pieces, but my exposure indicates "doing it right" is hardly a slam dunk.

Keep in mind that the majority of instruments don't have fundamentals that are all that low. Low E on a bass guitar is 41 Hz. Low notes on a grand piano are ostensibly lower, but they have a very heavy component of overtones that are actually louder than the fundamentals in that range. Large drums can also benefit.

However, the vast majority of music is in the midrange. I lose interest if the system doesn't have that right or if the added subwoofer screws up that balance.

In short, for some of us a subwoofer done poorly is a far worse offense than a system with a slightly shy bottom end

I think that if a lot of the anti-subwoofer crowd let a professional home theater calibrator come into their room with some subwoofers, a good means of filtering the bass below 80hz out of the mains, and a couple of days to make it all work - they would be amazed by the results.

You unwittingly made the case for those of us who advised to "proceed with caution" when it comes to subwoofers.

You pointed out that: 1) you will likely need more than one subwoofer, 2) you will have to add an active filter to your system, 3) you will want a professional involved, and 4) it even may take the professional several days to get satisfactory results.

That certainly explains why there are so many poor sounding examples of subbed systems out there.

I'm not a home theatre person (in fact I often don't care for the over-done sound in commercial theatres) and have near zero interest in action films and the like. It's not that I and a lot of the others are "anti-subwoofer" as much as we recognize that it is often difficult to do right. And, done wrong, it takes a system backward instead of forward in other areas where our hearing is more sensitive.

I'd also be rather cautious as to whether a "professional home theatre calibrator" is listening for the same things this two-channel guy wants from his system for music. Maybe what I need is a "professional two channel subwoofer calibrator" but that strikes me as a rather rare sub-specialty. ;-)

Martykl, I actually think we're in substantial agreement. Summed up, both of us are saying that adding a well integrated subwoofer to a system is a lot of work to get right. My added comment is that, if not done properly, you can end up worse off.

Certainly I completely agree that subs are not "necessary" to enjoy acoustic music, but in my experience they can enhance my enjoyment of it.

The problem with these types of discussions is that people prioritize things in different orders.

I'll agree with Learsfool that a very high percentage (but not all) of the sub-augmented systems I've heard over the years sound unnatural to me when playing acoustic music.

Part of that is the nature of recordings while another part is that a living room doesn't have the same acoustics as a concert hall.

Simply put, any system playing recorded music - regardless of cost - is a set of compromises when compared to a live acoustic performance.

However, it is no surprise that some people are very happy with their added sub while others look at it as a complication that may or may not improve the situation.

Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end.

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which is about 65 Hz. That doesn't require a sub unless your recording has noises that include something other than from the bow on the strings.

The problem with many speakers is their response is ragged in this region due to room acoustics and speaker placement issues. Those issues can be addressed, but the answer isn't automatically a sub.

My case is a bit extraordinary in that my subs are integral to the speaker design and the speaker itself. The midrange driver handles above 100hz, and the integral subs are 10hz-100hz. So indeed the 65hz frequency of a cellos low notes is changed by turning my subs on and off. Previous to this I've integrated subs into my system crossed over much lower (in the 45hz range). There also, it seemed to make a difference to me in how the cello and instruments occured that reached similar lows that are NOT necessarily included in the spectrum covered by the sub. Sorry that I can't explain it beyond that, but that's what I recall hearing. I certainly admit that I could be influenced by expectations. The mind is a powerful thing.

I don't know that your situation is "extraordinary" as there are a number of speaker systems that are designed from the ground up with a sub. However, I think the general gist of the discussion has been toward the question of adding subs to stand-alone speakers.

As for a lower crossover point, keep in mind that there is rarely a brick wall at a particular frequency. If your sub accurately crosses over at 45 Hz, it is almost certainly putting out a noticeable amount of sound one octave (90 Hz) and even two octaves (180 Hz) above the crossover point. The amount depends on the respective slopes of high and low pass filters involved for the speaker and sub respectively. (And, even if a sub crossover has extremely steep slopes, that in itself introduces another set of problems to deal with.)

I sold stereos back in the days when most amps had tone controls and it was extraordinarily rare to find a customer who did not like the change in sound that came from nudging the bass and treble controls up to 1 or 2 o'clock.

Whether or not this is the effect you're experiencing is hard to tell unless you can compare your system side-by-side with a live cello (to continue the example in use) or perhaps use some RTA analysis of your room response with each configuration.

Ultimately, your only question is "are you satisfied?"

Given the lack of the brick wall that you described, why wouldn't that be clearly understandable that such an effect were possible?

The question is not whether it is clearly understandable, but what does one do about it?

There are multiple complexities at work. Not only is there the selection of the crossover frequency and slope between the subs and speakers, but one also has the issue of phase interaction since the speaker driver will be in a different physical spot than the sub. The sub and speaker may be additive at one frequency and subtractive at another. Move the distance between them and that may change.

The room's interactive nodes are a related, but separate issue.

Since there are multiple variables in play, what helps fix one problem may aggravate another. Hopefully that gives a bit of insight as to why some sub integrations are more successful than others.