What is it in MM that can give me goose-bumps? 🤔


Neither the best resolution CD or MC will give me goose-bumps.
Changing to e.g. my AT 440ML will do, will emotionaly move me, has emotional *impact* with every note played. 
CD and even MC seems to resonate with my intellect, my MMs with my emotions. 
It seems somehow contradictory, but so it is. 
Anyone else has these experiences?
Michélle 🇿🇦 
128x128justmetoo

Showing 12 responses by rauliruegas

Dear @anthonya :  Due that the Stanton caNTILEVER/STYLUS HOLDER IS WAY RESONANT BECAUSE  it don't rest in the cartridge body tight as shouldbe then the best Stanton ever is the 981 with a Pickering top original cantilever/stylus holder that even in its constructionis way more solid that the Stanton one and additional to that it rest tight inside the 981. No one Stanton/Pickering can beats it.

I know that because I own the 981 and Pickering too and I tested in that way to see what happens and you know what: there is no return, outstanding quality performance levels. I posted this more than one time in the MM long thread.

R.
Dear @anthonya :  I owned the EPC205 and AKG P25 and are very good performers and if you want to go with Shure you have to look for the Ultra 400 or 500.

Now about Pickering try to found out the 7500 or at least the 5000. The important subject in any cartridge is not its stylus tip shape but the design of the cartridge motor that's what mnakes the difference for the good or bad, repeat cartridge motor and the 5000/7500 shares the same motor that's different from the 3000/4000.

The ADC 26/27 is a superlative IM cartridge, the best of the best vintage ones, and came with a plastic cartridge body, aluminum cantilever, ellipthical stylus tip and its output connector pins not even gold plated but what a performer and its extremely high quality comes from its cartridge motor.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
I forgot two ecellent vintage ones: Nagatron 9600 ( IM ), Azden P50 and Grado Tribute.

Btw, Iown several vintage cartridges, I'm not a seller so stay with me. Fortunatelly and through the MM thread I hade the opportunity to listen the best top MM, MI, IM, Electrect cartridges. You can name any and you can be sure I own or owned and certainly test it /evaluated/listen It.



R.
Dear @justmetoo : As you I really like it those Ortofon MI vintage models. I don’t know why Ortofon detour to other direction and even that its today MM are good performers I think they should be to return with a today new MI be based ( not exactly same one. ) on those vintage ones. I think they can do it.

Today I will start to re-listen to really top vintage MI/MM performers and over the time I want to listen again to those Ortofon that I still own.
Today I will start with the best of the best the: ADC 26/27. No one MM vintage cartridge can even approach its quality performance, not Audio Terchnica, Grace, Stanton, Pickering, Ortofon and the like. The ones that approach that very high quaility levels are MI too: AKG P100 LE, Astatic 2500, Empire 4000D3 and yes exist one MM and is the Technics 100C MK$ stand alone model not the headshell integrated.

Follow enjoying your room/system, this is all about.

R.
Dear @justmetoo : I think the main issue belongs not exactly to your room/system/ears ( at least I can't be sure because I don't know for true  its quality level performance. The Burmester is a bass-reflex design and the bass woofers are side firing: the rflex in the design too or at the back?. I have some hyphotesis about the overall issue that I only figure out. ) but a psycho-acustic phenomenom about the kind of whole " color " of MUSIC that moves you the more and LOMC/CD have not that kind of MUSIC color, that's all and this is my take.

So, enjoy it and enjoy what moves you.

R.
Dear @bdp24  : I posted  "  my take is that both kind of cartridges can give us goose-bumps but in different way in different " gradation " and digital alternative too.

Seems to me that what justmetoo perceives is a room/system acoustical phenomenon ( in that " scenario "/stage. ) and personal preferences.

Digital, MM/MI or LOMC have the real and true capacity to recreate in almost any one ( not biased to one or the other media. ) of us that: goose-bumps at a media gradation levels.

Differences always exist and each one of us are unique about " emotion develops " levels.
What is the musical instrument that moves me the more: female voice followed by piano and the level of performance of any musical instrument has a gradation levels.

I'm not a music player but I know that not all violins or cellos or double bass sounds the same, it sounds different coming from different manufacturers and the player not only makes the instrument choice but the kind of chords to use with but any of those instruments has the same capacity to moves our feelings/emotions at different levels.

MUSIC is just that MUSIC.

R.






Dear @justmetoo : I try to figure out what you are hearing in your system. I know very well your electronics and analog rig but the Burmester quality level performance is totally unknow for me.

I can see that you don't use a TT clamp, that you have behind the rigth speaker " something " that looks as a " speaker ", at your seat position I don't know at what level are your ears against the midrange/tweeter drivers, I can see a reflecting glass table just in front of " you ", etc, etc.

Perhaps the best way that any of us can help you could be that you choose 3-4 tracks of 3-4 LPs/CDs and tell us what is the kind/characterisitcs of the sound you are listening then maybe some one of us couild own a LP/CD of the ones you named and we can make comparisons of your description against what we listen in our system.

R.
Dear @justmetoo : "  What I do not agree with is, that this sound presentation is closer to near field LIFE listening. "

My mistake because no media can really puts us nearer to live MUSIC event.

What I was thinking in that post  is that " puts me nearer to the recording " where normally the recording microphones are " seated " at near field position.

You posted: " deeply detailed.. "   well MUSIC at near field position as where recording microphones are " seated " is exactly that: deeply detailed and I can add with brigthness, agresiveness and even sometimes harsh.
 Between the MUSIC source and microphones is nothing but air.

Transients defines the timbre/tone/color of the MUSIC, its natural color and for whatever reasons the MM tone is the one that moves you the more. 
It's not about room/system or kind of MUSIC or the media you are listening but the overall tone/color what moves you the more.

It's something deep personal/subjective. The " color " of CD/LOMC quality performance is not what moves you.

I don't know what kind of explanations you was waiting to read when posted this thread.

Again, sorry but I can't help to give you the rigth answer to the OP. At least not to satisfy you.

R.
Dear @jasonbourne52 :  Yes the MA are really good I still own 2-3 of them like the 630.

Now, Nagatron designed a ribbon very special cartridge that was the 9100 model, I never had the opportunity to own it and there is an Agoner that owns it and posted about years ago.

Yes, @dover  is rigth when talked about speed/coherence that MM can't achieve at the same levels than good LOMC designs.

I mentioned the IM/MI ADC 26/27 that along the AKG P100LE and Astatic MF2500 ( no one is MM. ) are " there ".

R.
Dear @justmetoo : Your inquire  is interesting and my take is that both kind of cartridges can give us goose-bumps but in different way in different " gradation ".

MUSIC per sé has as main characteristic that moves human been feelings/emotions. If we listen MUSIC through a Walkman, home system or in a live event: things happens.

I owned and still own " hundreds " of MM/MI/LOMC cartridges and through my first hand experiences in my system and other friend's systems I learned something about what you posted and that makes the differences :


""  it has more to do with timbre and TIMING... , than higher/better resolution.  ""


Our MUSIC perception is a complex issue but my take is that what defines in first place what we are listening belongs mainly to the " "speed transient response "/attack of the media we are using/listening.

Transient response is responsable of the immediacy/impact feeling of the MUSIC and its harmonics.

The transient attacks in LOMC cartridges and CD are faster with a faster decay time than what we can perceive in almost all MM cartridges.
That transient attack we can easy aware through the bass range where exist a real difference between LOMC/CD and MM cartridges and only the very best MI/IM ones as the ADC 26/27 performs as the LOMC/CD media.

Transients are the ones that modulates all the frequency range affecting timbre/timing and the bass transients/attack are the ones that modulates the more or at least is more easy to be aware of it and to be aware if the system  has good bass range response.

: I started in audio owning MM/MI cartridges coming from AT, B&O, Empire and AKG and were several years latter of those early years that an audio distributor introduced me to LOMC experience through the 103 followed by almost all Denon models to the 305 and from there and for many years I just listened in exclusive way LOMC cartridges from Dynavector, Ortofon, Fulton, FR, AT, Supex, Highphonic and the like.

So for years my ears were accustom to LOMC cartridges. Suddenly I remember that I had MM/MI cartridges that for all those years were seated in the closset and I mounted one of them and I like it what I was hearing ( move my emotions. ) and then I just followed with and buying " hundreds " of MM/MI cartridges and decided to share my experiences with through the MM thread that started several years ago.
In those years I was really exited about and living the same kind of experiences you are talking about and in those times I was thinking that MM/MI was a superior media ( more emotive. ) than LOMC cartridges with lower distortion levels but J.Carr posted in that thread that my statement about distortions was a misunderstood due that in reality is the other way around: MM has higher distortion levels no matters what.
Well even that I was in love with those higher distortions: moves me more than CD or LOMC cartridges.

Sudenly ( after some years. )  I switch to LOMC again and found out that the sound puts me nearer to the live MUSIC. Gives me a different perspective.

During all those years I always ( as today but the pandemic. ) attended each week to listen live MUSIC and I had the opportunity to listened in several ocassions seated at true near field position.

My room/system is fine tunned in that way and my tests/evaluations are doing seated at near field.

Is clear for what I said at the begining that I love MUSIC and all those 3 medias moves me. I enjoy it.

Returning to the bass range  the MM is a little in the " fat " side compared against LOMC or CD and with little higher overhang and not to fast transient attacks.

There are other issues about. Normally MM cartridge has flat frequency response 20hz-20khz ( and beyond it. ) when LOMC cartridges has a peak at high frequencies, so here exist another kind of frequency/harmonics modulators because we have to take in count that the inverse RIAA eq. comes with around -20db at high frequencies and beyond it: exist a lost in the high frequencies that some way or the other is " compensated " in the LOMC cartridges for the developed high frequency peaks.

Even Ortofon after several tests with different Ortofon cartridge models and from other manufacturers through its Golden Ear testers ( blind testers that's a group of different kind of MUSIC listeners experience. ) arrived to the conclusión that +2db-3db at over 20khz peak was the way to go because that Golden Ears pannel was what they liked the more.

You own very good audio system however MM characteristics is what goes with you. For what you posted I could assume that when you attend to a live event you seat not at near field position, I really don't know.

Here I think that the issue is not exactly about quality level of one media or the other but how each media handle ( transducer. ) the recording information in the LP grooves and how we perceive the reproduced signal.

Again, that transients attack is what makes the differences. Why LOMC/CD failed to moves you is another matters and unfortunatelly personal/subjective. Each of us are different.

I'm sorry not to help you in more specific way but the issue is not an easy one as we can think. To many parameters invloved there. 

Anyway, only an opinion that still leaves open the OP.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.