There is only one solution to your problem...Trios |
I would forget planars. You will never get that freedom you had from a horn like the AG. I like soundlabs. I love and owned many of the planar breed. I have yet to hear a planar that can do what a Trio or even Duo can do. No matter how much power/current you use you always have a flatness dynamically. Everything else is similar but that weight and freedom is just not there with electrostatic or ribbons.
I suspect you will feel robbed if you go the planar route after AG horns. |
As you have owned an AG you will probably be able to dismiss comments about coloration.
The Uno is challenged in the area where the sub meets the mid horn, but the further you go up the AG range the more that is fixed. The subs cut off is much lower.
I have no idea what size room the person who reckons his soundlabs are as dynamic has? Maybe if used as headphones! When compared to an AG horn in the 105- 110 db/watt sensitivity, a planar just cannot do that kind of impact and poise.
Some people have no idea what kind of freedom and dynamic range we are discussing here. It is not until you have lived with a high sensitivity speaker like the AGs, as you have, that you realize how flat and compressed the planars and nearly all other speaker systems are. This not to say speakers like the soundlabs are not dynamic, just not as dynamic.
Go listen, they will sound distant and not as clear as your AG. At worst they will sound congested with limp bass next to an AG. The bass will be deep bass, but without the feeling of weight or 3 dimensional depth. Plus your choice of amp with an AG is a whole other joy as I have found. All those huge amps to drive insensitive speakers impact greatly on the sound too. |
Inna,
the subs on the smaller avantgardes are a compromise to avoid having to
use a huge bass horn to produce low frequencies. If you have the space & cash they have the Bass horn. But this would probably be to big for many users. |
Shadorne,
surely if that were the case every recording studio would have electrostatic speakers. Advancements have been made in all areas in of hifi since those days. Many studios have compromised monitors for good reason. Anyone remember the NS 10? |
Vicdamone,
There is a bit of an issue where the sub meets the mid horn
on the Uno. To be honest since I have had the Trio I find the UNO & the Duo to be weak in that area. It is only due to the sub cut off being so high. Even so both are difficult to beat.
Personally as you could guess I don't know of a better speaker all round than the trio.
As unexplained earlier I had planars for 20 years & from all the revered manufacturers. |
Madhf,
Having owned both the apogee diva & duetta sigs, & had them modified with all the latest ribbons & crossovers I can assure you these will not apply. Great as they can be. The Diva being the least dynamic.
I think what some people posting here are not realising is that powerful amps cannot substitue for the sensitivity and the way the AG horns couple to the air. I dont want to sound like a broken record or an ass, but most of the suggestions as a replacement mentioned so far will not do what the original posters Unos already did. Fact.
The answer to the question is just better horns! |
Hi Weseixas,
if you have heard an AG horn you will find a sound like a electrostatic speaker on steroids. No honking nonsense. Coloration is some myth due to some old rubbish horns made by someone else. Be clear on that.
I plugged in my Apogees not long ago. They are one of the finest planars out there, but they sound constricted after a Trio. Before the Trio I felt they were the finest speakers. But dynamic contrast aside, tonally they sound very similar just not as clear. No honking. I could never live with that.
Shadore,
regarding the ATC and Genelec I too could easily use the word S**t, but I have used 2 stunning ATC systems. Both in very good studios and one custom built for the space. But all the other ATCs I have heard domestically have had very bad sound.
As for Genelec speakers I dont know how people use them to mix on. They are devoid of detail, even in places which have the room sorted out. Strikes me they are for people who just want a warm fuzz for sound. I doubt an AG owner would stand 30 secs with one.
As I said earlier the answer to the question is a better horn. |
Unsound,
I will gladly help you. I am sure there are some horns that suck or blow as you put it. But there are also great horns.
I have yet to hear a speaker better than the AG Trio. Like any speaker there are set up issues(placement/amplification etc), but once dealt with you will be done.
If you enjoy your Theils, you will die when you hear an AG Trio set up.
|
This has started to get a little daft.
Weseixas,
if your comment was aimed at me regarding Bel canto I would be glad to explain.
Before the AG Trio I had all sorts of planars. Magnepan 3.6r Apogee Duetta Sigs & Divas, ML CLS, Quad ESL to name a few. At the time I tried the AG Uno too. I realized the Uno had qualities in spades which I had struggled with to get any of my planars to do.
To get some life out of these wonderful planar speakers I tried every amp you can throw a stick at. Tubes,SS from 100w to 1,000w.
When the BC amps came out with an amp the size of a shoe able to stick 1000w into a 4 ohm speaker that ran cold, I thought I had died & gone to heaven.
They did a great job on the Duettas, they were cable of controlling and squeezing that last bit out of a bass ribbons and had the cleanest leading edge I had heard until then. Leaving all my other amps sounding slow,fat and tired.
When the Trios arrived I had not decided on an amp for them. I still had a cupboard full of giant powerful amps which I had amassed after years of planars. So I stuck the BCs on the Trio. They were so clean, amazingly quick and detailed. Without some harmonic texture granted, but in theory this was a daft combination, but it sounded very good. Now I have ended up with flea power SETs. A world I could never have entertained before.
This is why I bothered writing to help with this question. Our friend is finding it hard to replace his Uno. I know why. The alternatives are difficult. His issue was about bass integration with his Uno. So get a bigger AG where the Bass is cut off lower and is able to be moved anywhere in the room and can use a simple amplifier. Thats all.
This thread has got complicated with all sorts of random alternatives. From ATCs, Apogees, Genelec, and Soundlabs. It is simple.
The AG is the closest to a live person playing I had heard. Not a distant copy. It is still the same after a longtime owning a pair. I never think about speakers these days. To be honest I have access to most of the other speakers systems mentioned here. I never bring them home and when I have to use them I am reminded how superior the Trio is to them in just about every aspect. I am not saying this because I have one. I have one because I tried the rest. |
Hi Inna,
I have tried the Trio with various Audio Note amps. I did like the Audio note on the Trio, but it was a slightly old fashioned sound but very musical, especially with the 300b monos. I just not a 300b lover.
I have not tried the Lamm on them as I had some many years ago. Although I did try an amp with the same tube as the Lamm (6c33c).
The Trio sounds very different with SS or Tube and seems to be very revealing of tube type. i.e 300b, 45, 2A3, 6c33c, El34 and so on. For me the 45 had a dream combination of transparency and tone.
Do you mean the Jadis Eurythme speakers? They are beautiful to look at but I have not heard them.
I guess if discussing them there are also the Acapella speakers to. The tweeter is the finest I have heard. Unfortunately impossible to match with other drivers IMHO. I dream of a full range plasma speaker! Damn the laws of physics. |
Atmasphere,
I am glad there are people like you in the world. Clear and to the point. |
To try and put this damping factor in context for this thread, I had a very high damping factor amp (<1000) and popped in an SET with very low damping factor on the AG.
On the AG Trio, like most AGs, which use active subs driven at speaker level or line level, the damping effect was quite obvious. I could not say one was terrible and the other glorious, but I could say that for some types of music one could work better than the other.
The high damping factor made extremely tight low bass which had an air around it and gave an impressive listen, especially with electronic music.
But I must say when an SET with little or no damping factor was put in it had another effect. Yes the bass was less controlled, but the extra texture and ease of listening more than made up for the loss in grip. If listening to more acoustic music the low damping factor was quite desirable.
I couldnt say the bass was just muddy as it had a much more natural texture the high damping factor amps could not really do. Maybe some of this could be put down to the quality/capability of the amps. But all the amps I tried were up there!
The effects of a simple amp like a 45 tubed SET on speakers with this kind of sensitivity should not be underestimated. For all the talk of trying this speaker or that, it is one of the great freedoms of horns like these. Something which seems to be lost on most people. Very few can really enter this world without too many drawbacks with power.
As I explained before, if bass integration was the issue, then move up the AG range. You loved the AG you had apart from the integration of the sub. Besides why not add room correction to control any other possible bass issues?
There is an AG Duo here on the Gon for 8k. You will be done then. |
Atmasphere,
am I right in saying that due to this impedance curve on the trio they designed the CDC? I was under the impression this made it tube friendly |
My usual listening daytime level on the AG Trio at around 4.5m, peaks around 90db. Effortless with 1.5 watts. My Apogees at that level were great too, but with 1,000 watt/channel amps and dual active subs...
The Apogees even with the wonderful new Graz ribbons and SOTA cross overs could not do that weight and 3d presentation. Sorry to repeat myself, but the Trio is like the best planar on steroids. A logical progression if you love that planar presentation with the Duo not far behind. The separation and impression the sound is coming along way in front of the speaker is marked.
I personally cant go back, even though I had magical listening sessions with Magnepans, Apogees etc... Avantgarde have something right and should not be thought of horns sonically.
I am sounding like an advert but I have yet to hear better across the board. Which is why the answer to the post is better horns... I wish I could say something small, interesting and cheap. I guess what you spend on the speaker is saved on the amps! |
