What do you do when nothing seems to get LP clean?

I can't speak to the Buggtussel in particular, either, mine was more a question of enzymatics, in general.

Patrick, I agree with your "what to lose on an unplayable record" question, too. But, when was the last time you saw that qualifier as a marketing or advertising boast and how many general browsers for vinyl cleaning fluid are even going to imagine there'd be such a distinction? Granted, if certain prducts move from the "use them on all your of vinyl without worry" to "use on otherwise unplayable records as a last resort", I might try some of them myself. I'd just hope that such a distinction would be clear to everyone with concerns.

Yes, Stewart, read the ENTIRE thread. Then, if you have any of the same questions that I had, maybe YOU can get them answered. I couldn't.

Some of these ingredients, e.g., fragrances and fabric softeners, work best when they don't wash off easily. This is a problem for vinyl.

I agree. Same goes for certain enzymes which may continue to do their "work" on your vinyl for quite some time if they are not thoroughly and completely removed or neutralized. Trouble is, the enzymatic process is an active process, not just a deposit of residue that may or may not be removed. But if folks are convinced that any enzyme, once completely removed, is safe (and that it doesn't eat away at the vinyl’s constituent ingredients in the first place), and that the developer of such an enzymatic solution (there are a few) have done proper research to determine the efficacy of all their ingredients and can speak to such results in a direct and cogent manner, enzyme away.

and the noise floor may be lower

Oh, you gotta get back to us on that one, Doug!

Why not try posting under your usual name, "jacksprat" so that we can see who may be proved truly foolish and so that I can tell "you" that I couldn't care less what you think?! If questioning what goes in to a product and the effects it may or may not have on vinyl is foolish, fine with me. I’ll be foolish. Oh, and there is also meds for those who don’t have the stones to post under their usual screen name. Last I heard, it contained testosterone.

Doug, thanks for the qualifier! Keep us updated on that :-)

Doug, thanks on behalf of many of us all for that very considered post. Your concerns reflect some of mine concerns and, from the correspondence I’ve received lately, I realize that while I may be one of the few to “vocalize” them, there are a number of others whom share them.

The discussion of enzyme reactions in a vinyl cleaning fluid contains salient issues and is not limited to one product or another – there are a few enzyme-based fluids out there. Based on my research, I found it on point that you divide the discussion into cause and effect AND a separation between whether a certain enzyme might cause permanent, irreversible damage, once applied, and whether the damage might occur only if the certain enzyme were not fully and thoroughly removed.

Let us just say for argument’s sake that whatever enzyme used as an ingredient can do its duty without damage to any composition of vinyl in most any record during a short exposure and can then be thoroughly removed – stopping its active process and without leaving any sort of residue . I am not convinced that the enzyme(s) used in some fluids would pass such a test because I don’t see any evidence of such being thoroughly tested, but let’s assume that it is so.

This leaves the whole process of complete rinsing and removal/neutralization (leaving aside your possible concern of using alcohol as a neutralizer). What of the brushes used in the cleaning process? Cross-contamination? Use of separate brushes only to be used with the enzymes? Alcohol or other rinse for brushes, tubes, wands, etc. before each pass, each record?

It also leaves the whole point you mentioned with respect to “future shock”. Some folks may not notice a gradual or eventual change in sonics, especially if they are limited only to certain HF modulations, etc. Based on your attention to detail, I’m thinking that you would! :-) While record cleaning fluids have been around for a long time, there seems to be a particular spate of efforts in the past five years or so to keep making improvements and provide a miracle washing cure in the face of the increasingly growing interest in vinyl. This can be good and bad. My ONLY concern is that such products, whoever produces them, undergo rigorous testing so that one can at least feel reasonably safe in their usage. Of course, this level of confidence will vary from user to user, and that’s okay.

Thanks for adding to the disussion!

Mrkidknow, it seems that you have stated elsewhere that you were at least one person consulted, perhaps the main person consulted, in the development of this particular product (and since you've indicated that you will be addressing a specific product and not enzymes in general). As such, whatever you post will hopefully be illuminating. Because you are not exactly an uninterested party, please do not take offense if you are asked who you are (other than Mrkidknow) and your qualifications to make what I assume will be a chemical/biological discussion. Also, please do not take offense if independent verification of ingredients or processes is sought.

Dave, why be so silly to attack me as a fan of a baseball team because I had questions about enzymes in vinyl cleaners? Besides, none were directed your way, unless you have a vested interest that I don't know about or something...

As for the Yanks, yeah, they folded. Doesn't bother me much, though, the Sawx have to win once in a great while. Long as it's just once every 20 years or so (as is history) and then nothing in the Series (in my, my dad's, and my granddad's lifetime), I can live with that! Ha! :-)