For my $$$ it stops with the new improved Audio Magic Super Fuse. I admit I have not compared the Super Fuse to any of the various HiFi Tuning Fuses, Furutech fuse, Isoclean fuse, Synergistic Research fuse, Acme fuse, Audio Horizons fuse or any other aftermarket fuse I might have overlooked. |
Frogman wrote,
"How is it possible that Almarg's observation (that the current is alternating) was completely ignored. A case of "I believe what I believe and don't bother me with the facts?"
Then the net current is zero, no? |
The actual signal itself, the one that carries the music information, the electromagnetic wave, is not alternating. Make sense? |
Education can be defined as what's left after you've forgotten everything you learned in school.
:-) |
Al wrote,
"However, I have yet to see a technically defensible explanation of how a fuse would have any "knowledge" of the direction in which power and energy are being conveyed through it."
It's really rather simple. The sound is different depending on the direction of the fuse, any fuse. Therefore, the fuse must "know" which direction the signal, the music signal, the electromagnetic wave, is being conveyed through it. You're mincing words.
Cheers |
Wolf man wrote,
"I'm gonna reverse the direction of all the fuses in my rig, listen to it, reverse some of them, reverse the other ones, re-reverse the previously reversed ones, and then return the entire thing to its non reversed state."
I realize you're joking but the only way to do it with any chance of success is reverse the fuses one at a time and listen for a change in the sound. If the sound is judgement better for the first fuse go to next fuse. If the sound is worse put the fuse back in the way it was. If you're not sure if the sound is better or worse leave it alone and come back to it later. Continue until all fuses have been auditioned. Then repeat the whole procedure in case there were some fuses you were uncertain about. It will be much easier to hear the difference in direction the second time around. |
Newton did not need a technical explanation or even mathematics to realize what was going on when he saw an apple fall from a tree. The most important part of the whole scientific method thing is the ob-ser-va-tion. Hel-loo! |
As David Farragut once said, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." There will always be folks sitting on the sidelines throwing things at the players on the field. |
Mapman wrote,
"Would I hear a fuse orientation change? Maybe first time at best (some of my fuses have never been touched since, well, forever), but I am skeptical about that even, and would be even more uncertain from there I suspect, therefore I will save myself the pain and uncertainty and just enjoy the good music until it stops being that and I have to figure out whats wrong now once again."
The Age of Uncertainty. And Pain. :-) |
Mapman, if I can be so bold can I suggest you do your due diligence? While we've undoubtedly covered this before somewhere ( I can see you wracking your brain) I suspect you might get some of the answers you seek by going to the HiFi Tuning web site and taking a gander at the technical data sheets that show, among other things, differences in resistance according to direction of fuse, differences in resistance according to fuse conductor and end cap metal type, differences in resistance according to cryo and non-cryo treatment. Things of that nature.
When someone says a thing is almost impossible what that actually means is that it is possible. - Old audiophile saying |
A skeptic is a person who is, above all, curious and goes to great length to establish the veracity or falsehood of claims, some more preposterous than others. So skepticism is a good thing, no? On the other hand, what do we call a person who will neither listen to reason nor provide any evidence contradicting the claim that fuses are directional. What's missing is the curiosity and the investigation, both major parts of the scientific method. The word that comes to my mind is pseudo-skeptic. |
Kiddman, they're not talking about the direction of AC flow. Hel-loo! Well get to the bottom of all this one day. Lol |
Kiddman wrote,
"Geoff, since there is no net flow, no "direction" of electron travel, then it follows there is no difference in the orientation of a fuse. Have someone change it, or not change it, and you have to identify it. You will see you fail as often as you get it right if the sample size is reasonable."
Kiddman, hi, actually that doesn't follow at all. What you wrote is known in the business as a Strawman Argument, a logical fallacy. The reason your statement is illogical is because the music signal is an electromagnetic wave that's not related to the electrons or the direction the electrons are moving. The musical signal, unlike electrons or current, moves in one direction only in an AC circuit. Follow? |
Kiddman, so you agree with me now that the music is NOT the current and it's NOT the electrons. If the electromagnetic wave - the music - is alternating at 60 Hz I'm pretty sure you would hear it, well, maybe not you specifically. Lol Your next move: "No, it's the voltage that's alternating." |
It would appear the naysayers are getting ready to concede. Can't say I blame them very much. Next topic suggestion: if fuses are directional, can it possibly be true that all wire is directional? The internal wiring in speakers, the wire in a capacitor, the internal wiring in electronics, speaker cables, interconnects, house wiring. OMG! Agree, disagree? Share, share! |
Of course it should be pointed out that once the trigger is pulled to get a hold of an aftermarket fuse the fun has just begun. The reason I say this is because there are so many aftermarket fuses available now, not like the old days when there was just Isoclean and HiFi Tuning. The last time I looked there was at least seven high end fuse manufactures, counting Audio Magic Super Fuse (which I happen to own), AMR, Synergistic Research, Furutech, Isoclean, Audio Horizons and Acme Audio. Have I missed any?
What this means is that the advanced audiophile, who has finally made up his mind to spring for a high end fuse, must now figure out exactly WHICH fuse to spend his hard earned cash on. What we need is some unsuspecting reviewer somewhere to stp up to the plate and evaluate all of the fuse offerings so one can make a decision. Fuses are getting to be as bad as cables. Lol |
Al wrote,
"If any of those at the believer end of the spectrum wish to comment further, they may want to consider providing a description of what specific steps they took in their assessments of directionality differences to assure that the differences they heard were not the result of extraneous variables. Such as those I described in an earlier post, namely differences in contact integrity, equipment being in different states of warmup, differences in AC line voltages and noise conditions, etc. And note that I have not even mentioned until now the vagaries of aural perception."
Al, excellent point. I actually have no problem whatsoever with double blind testing, which you seem to be proposing, or any other type of test, as scientific and as thorough as you might deem necessary, to get to the bottom of this thing. Of course, having said that, I suspect that none of the naysayers will be jumping into the breech to perform any testing. It's the old pseudo skepticism thing, I guess. |
Theaudiotweak wrote,
"How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise."
Interesting. So, let me get this straight. Are you saying that magnets reverse the direction of current flow or that magnets increase the speed of current or perhaps you mean increase the speed of electrons flowing in the cable? If any if those possibilities are true, how would that improve the sound? And improve the dynamics, and reduce noise? |
Mapman, I heard you I get it. You're tired and can't think if anything to contribute. I totally understand. Maybe time to sit this one out. Lol |
Theaudiotweak wrote,
"How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise."
Couple of nits. One, if you are referring to the music signal, the electromagnetic field, it's a little unlikely that magnets can affect it since the electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons traveling at the speed of light. Like light, the electromagnetic wave in cables is unaffected by magnets. Two, if you are referring to electrons, electrons are not the signal nor are they the current. In addition, the electrons travel extremely slowly in cables, about a meter an hour. So, magnets, one assumes would serve only to slow them down.
Cryogenics, on the other hand, simply rearranges the atoms and molecules of the material making the atomic structure more homogeneous. So, apples and oranges. |
Hey, Tom, I've been using magnets since Christ was a Boy Scout. I'm just objecting to your explanation. For years folks were trying to get rid of magnetic connectors, magnetic steel enclosures, magnetic screws in speakers and wall outlet plates, etc. Who woulda think it, magnets are good! Lol |
Tbg, if folk aren't wrapping their toroidal transformers with annealed mu metal they are nowheresville. There are a lot of things going on under the radar that will come out at a later date, bye for now... |
To all, before we too sidetracked, let's try to focus on what we were talking about for a second. What we were talking about is the electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal. We only mentioned magnetic fields when magnets were brought up. Now, just to set the record straight, the magnetic field induced by current flow through wire or by a transformer is not the same as the electromagnetic field of the signal which, as we already pointed out, travels at the speed of light, or close to it, you know, being that the electromagnetic wave is made up of photons. The magnetic field is a different beast, as Mapman learned in Electricity 101, assuming he remembers anything. (He can always consult Maxwell's equations if he needs a fresher.) So, the question on the table is how a magnet which produces a magnetic field, not an electromagnetic wave, can influence the signal which is composed of photons that, if recall from Electricity 101, have no mass? Or have we kind of come to the conclusion that we actually don't care about how it all works as long as it works. Lol |
Al, nice post but I have a few questions. One is if it's true that magnets can affect the electrons in the conductor how would they affect them? Logically, I suppose it's possible that electrons can be attracted by the positive pole of a magnet or repelled by the negative pole, you know, given that electrons have a negative charge. But if what just said is true the what would that mean? If electrons are attracted by the magnet then wouldn't the electrons more or less pool around the location of the magnet? If they are repelled by the magnet which way would they move? If the magnet is circular and attached around the magnet how would that affect the electrons - repel or attract or both? If the electrons are neither attracted to the magnet or repelled by it, how do you think they are being affected? And if the electrons are being attracted and or repelled how does that affect the sound one way or another? |
Al, I realize this next series of comments is beyond the scope of this discussion but I'd thought I'd throw it out there anyway, perhaps to see what you think. As I think I probably mentioned somewhere along the line on this thread, I have been using magnets in audio applications for a very long time. Furthermore, I have found them to have a positive effect on the sound. But the kicker is where I am using magents. I am using them on windows, on doors, on transformers, on cell phones, on TVs, on wood book cases, on mirrors, among other things. See, I told you it was beyond the scope. Lol. Now, having said all that I should also mention that the color of the magnet is quite important and depends on the object on which it is placed. For example, for steel blue, for aluminum red, for glass green. |
Mapman, I thought you were sidelined. I know, you just can't resist, right? So, it sounds like you and Al would not be interested in feng shui type ideas even if they improved the sound? Well, that's a fine howdyado. Geez, you guys really are set in your ways. |
Mapman, just can't stay away, huh? I actually consider you a groupie, no offense.
:-) |
Might email NASA or AES. Hey, I wonder what The Amazing Randi would have to say? |
Al and Mapman, I don't mean to put your feet to the fire, but could either one of you kindly post a quote from an aftermarket fuse manufacturer, any manufacturer, where he states that "the fuse arrow is supposed to be in the direction of current flow." I'm pretty sure this whole "in the direction of current flow" is just something that naysayers, in lockstep, picked up on after it was repeated a thousand times on the Internet. Kinda like Morphic Resonance, the hundred monkeys thing. It's called a Strawman Argument. Hel-loo! |
Mapman, next thing is you're going to be telling us the voltage is alternating. Then you're probably going to tell us the audio signal is alternating. sheesh! |
Al, hi, yes that's exactly what I mean, that Joe made the statement, not HiFi Tuning or Isoclean. |
Frogman wrote,
"Frankly, I have little interest in trying them at this point in time since I have much bigger fish to fry as concerns the tuning of my system."
Now, I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I trust you'll forgive me for saying so, but your statement sounds just a teeny bit dismissive, no offense intended. I wish you could have been here to hear my new liquid nano Super Fuse from Audio Magic when I inserted it into my Woo Audio WA6 headphone amp. And I wish you could also have been here to hear it when I reinserted it in the correct direction. |
Excerpt from intro to Zen and the Art of Debunkery. Enjoy.
"Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics.
As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery." |
I didn't realize Grouch Marx was an audiophile. |
Al, as regards the Briancunnungham post, I think it is important to understand he considers himself to be a skeptic. Not that there is anything wrong with that but in the case of aftermarket fuses he would be the type of skeptic not to actually try the fuse but to attempt to shoot it down with skeptic's arguments. Another thing I find fascinating is his use of capital letters when he states, "...within finite bounds of plausibility." Well, give me a break, what might be implausible to one person might easily be perfectly fine to another person. You know, if you start talking quantum mechanics to the guy on the street he will most likely look at you won't those big eyes that look like a deer in the headlights. So, I would not at all define a concept as be feasible or plausible based on some loosely goosey constraint such as the bounds of plausibility. Hell, black holes are "implausible" to probably 80% of the world's population. Cameras are "implausible" to folks living in many remote parts of the world, well, maybe not now with cell phones and everything. LOL. Who is defining what is plausible? |
Al, thanks, I did see that when read the post again, please don't take my comments to heart too much. If memory serves the reason for Bryon's rant was something I said in the thread you quoted from. I like Bryon and he definitely has a way with words.
Geoff |
Tony, we have already pointed out that HiFi Tuning provides data sheets on their web site for fuses of various types as well as other fuses, measured in both directions, with and without cryo. |
Tony wrote,
"So who among these esteemed EE's could perform these delicate measurements?"
That's so funny! Woulda, shoulda, coulda.... |
MM, happy to oblige but which color based thing are you referring to? I've got a bunch. Colored pens for CDs and Blu Ray, Multi colored light strobe light, CD tray masking and Blu Ray tray masking. Not to mention scattered light absorbers for CD and Blu Ray. My stuff isn't really feng shui, not even close actually. Pretty straight physics, well maybe not the strobe light, I don't know WHAT that is.
Tootles |
Wolf Man - rubber bands are really cool, esp. the really expensive ones, however my fuse has a liquid center (I'm not hot dogging you) so a rubber band would probably be way overkill. |
Wolf Man, I know, I get it, Penn and Teller are funny. Just like The Amazing a Randi, another Vegas performer who makes a living going after spoon benders, dowsers and other supposedly paranormal activity. He even went after me a few times. Hey, he's gotta eat, too. :-) |
MM, Oh, that. Well, you might not be aware of PWB Electronics and all of their Morphic Resonance related stuff, like color magnets and Silver Rainbow Foil. Anywho, in case you need a little tutorial on Morphic Resonance and feng shui, here's a neato YouTube clip for your viewing pleasure.
http://youtu.be/yRA3qBhdL4Y |
Penn and Teller exposing feng shui is like The Amazing Randi exposing high end cables, no? Give me a break. |
Ack-chew-ally, desperate makes more sense than disparate. IMHO of course. |
Mapman wrote,
""Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" series is smart, funny, and accurate"
Unlike much of it one might find around here."
Uh, did you forget a smiley face? Lighten up, already. Sheesh! |
