Without really knowing what might be affecting your system and its wiring, we cannot make a meaningful recommendation on what would work best for you. But generally, the best bet would be to audition your system with the various power cords, conditioners, etc, that may be under consideration, and determine by listening whether they make an improvement, and if they do, is that level of improvement worth the money. This type of thing is very indivdual to each system and home. |
There are many opinions on that. Where do you want to spend your money first? At the end of the day, everything from tweaks to pc's seem to matter even if there is no reasonable explanation. Since we don't have unlimited budgets, we have to make tough decisions. The killer is that, regardless of how we choose to proceed, we can't know all the right answers in advance -- there are just too many variables (acoustics, component selections, what you hear, cables ....). Do your research and listen to a broad variety of opinions and experiences. Then, pick an approach and stick to it (despite new marketing hype). For each decision. let your ears determine the choice.
My personal approach is to go for level A components, level A speaker cables, level B interconnects (that's my next upgrade), level C power cords, level B+ dedicated lines, level B+ power conditioners (it may be better than that) and level B+ acoustical treatments (though my room itself is better than that). Down the road, I may find that $6,000 of PC's is the next step. I'm not ready for that yet and would rather spend my money on other things right now. By the way, there's a used Elrod for sale here on the Gon if you decide to go that route.
Once you get to dedicated lines, you may find you don't need the Stealth and can then decide whether to sell it. Unless you get isolated transformers on your dedicated lines, I would bet you will still keep the Stealth though. Power cords by themselves will not, I believe, replace the functionality of the Stealth. Don't sweat it. Just keep trucking on your road to audio nirvana and know that there's always another potential tweak ahead. |
It's maddening, really. If the power conditioners clean things up (or, in the case of the PS Audio, regenerate the power altogether), how can that six feet make any meaningful difference? In my experience, it does make a difference, but it beats the Hell out of me why. |
Changing power cords on my Hydra-- from a dedicated circuit, no less-- makes an enormous difference to the overall sound of the system. Replacing the stock cord with an Elrod EPS 3 totally changed the sound of the system, other power cords and all. Now, to my surprise, I prefered the stock cord... but the senses tell what the senses tell. So, yes, it can make a stunning difference. Whether you like that difference is up to you. |
Ditto Drubin.
I have a Hydra, but using JPS Digital and Analog power cords made a significant difference. I suppose if you filter your water once, it might be purer if you filter it a second time, if that is analogous. But, truly, I haven't a clue as to why my stuff sounds better with the power cords in addition to the power conditioner.
I have heard that the Elrods are some of the elite power cords. |
The Stealth helps your other equipment sound better. Using a different power cord on the Stealth will probably make the entire system sound like it got an injection of steroids at the highest dose possible! Additional power cords to your other equipment will probably continue to improve dependent on the power cords you select and how they interact with your equipment. |
Using a power conditioner does not relegate the need for a low-inductance cord to the component. The issue here is inductance. Cheaper cords have higher inductance. Here is why inductance is important:
Amplifiers demand current from the power-line when the capacitors in their power-supplies become momentarily discharged due to high-current transients in the music signal. This discharge condition must be quickly recharged from the power-source, through the power-supply transformer, or a voltage sag will occur. Such voltage sags can cause audible distortion at the loudspeakers. If the power-source has significant series inductance in series, this can prevent the capacitor bank from recharging in time to prevent a voltage sag from occurring at the amplifier output transistors. With a low-inductance cable, the voltage drop across the cable will be insignificant during high-current transients, minimizing the voltage sag. This allows all of the current needed by the output transistors to be supplied when they need it, resulting in fast, dynamic response to transient signals.
Now spending $6K for a 6 foot power cord is a bit much. I would think that you can get to the point of diminishing returns for under $1K. |
Speaking of inductance: This is to you Audioengr. Since you say that cheaper cords have higher inductance then the more expensive ones: Is it possible, however, to find a $200 cord with the same inductance as one for $1000. Is there a way to know what the exact inductance rating, (if there is such a thing), is? If so, is there, then, any other reason to get the $1,000 over the $200 one given identical inductance stats? OR, do we just assume the inductance level is low because they are expensive? And, how low is low? Do we get to a point of inaudible differences? Enough questions for ya? Thanks in advance. |
Audioengr, nice explanation. Two quick questions: 1) Would larger/more capacitors negate the need for a low inductance cord (i.e., is there a substitution effect?) and 2) Are shorter cords better than longer cords since the inductance would decrease? Thanks. |
Interesting hypothesis regarding inductance. If this is true (certainly it could be) then how in the world does *adding* inductance (via the PS Audio Power Port) reportedly improve some rigs to a significant degree? Just seems contradictory to me; BTW I do not have a PS Audio.
My own exeriences have demonstrated that every one of these tweaks adds an improvement & they all work better when combined. I have a low inductance dedicated AC line, Wattgate 381 outlet, Chang Lightspeed line conditioners, some very expensive upgrade AC cords.
Twl advises well above; all systems work differently & we all hear differently. The only way to know what's actually going to happen at your own house is to experiment extensively. Wish that there were an easier & cheaper way, but half the fun is getting there. |
Ozfly wrote: 1) Would larger/more capacitors negate the need for a low inductance cord (i.e., is there a substitution effect?) To some extent, this is true, although there are effects from the inductance of the traces and wires in the power supply as well that are not improved by adding more caps. There is also the added inductance due to the size of these caps and the surface area that they consume on the circuit-board etc... Adding more caps does not necessarily improve the transient response either, since caps, particularly large ones, tend to have large internal resistance. Adding smaller low "ESR" caps can sometimes be more effective and they consume very little space. Power supplies that respond well to high-power transients at all frequencies usually have a mix of different cap sizes and types. 2) Are shorter cords better than longer cords since the inductance would decrease? Absolutely. Like all cables in audio, shorter is always better, unless of course you are using the cable as a tone control, whihc I do not recommend. |
Warrenh wrote: Since you say that cheaper cords have higher inductance than the more expensive ones: Is it possible to find a $200 cord with the same inductance as one for $1000? I suppose it is possible. Generally, the things that cause inductance to be low tend to make the cord big, inflexible and more expensive due to more individual wires inside. It is more likely that you will find a cord with less profit built-in that is low-inductance. Is there a way to know what the exact inductance rating, if there is such a thing,is? Absolutely. This can be measured with an LCR meter at several frequencies. I like to use 20kHz. All my cords and cables have published measurements. Unfortunately, I am the only manufacturer that I am aware of that publishes power cord characteristics. I believe the reason is that most vendors do not really understand why their cables work or modify the character of the sound. They also are probably suspicious of inductance being the primary factor. They amay be afraid that if they were to publish their inductance numbers, their cables would not rate well. Many of them feel that cords should do some level of filtering. I have found this to be detrimental myself. There are probably situations, particularly with line-level components where filtering the line current could make an improvement, but I believe that the vast majority of these can be attributed to common-mode noise from ground-loops in the systems. Filtering the power-cord is a band-aid at best and does not get at the root-cause of the problem, which is the ground-loop. If so, is there, then, any other reason to get the $1,000 over the $200 one given identical inductance stats? OR, do we just assume the inductance level is low because they are expensive? There may be reasons, such as lower dielectric absorption. The use of Teflon insulation in one cord and PVC insulation in another cord with the same inductance can make a difference in the transient response, because their dielectric absorption willl be different. This is a more difficult parameter to measure, and its effects are more subtle. I would be willing to bet that you would notice the difference, though. It gets down to splitting hairs at this point. And, you cannot expect the inductance to be low just because the cost is high. Many cables are sold at prices that people are willing to pay, due to hype, advertising, reputation etc... has nothing to do with performance. And, how low is low? Do we get to a point of inaudible differences? Low would be <.05uH/foot. As far as point of diminishing returns, I believe this depends on your amplifier power supply. If it is really poorly designed, you will probably hear improvements for every notch you go lower all the way to .00001 uH/foot. Also depends on how much ROMEX there is in the wall, after all the last 6 feet of a 25 foot run behaves much different than the last 6 feet of an 8 foot run. For all practical purposes, <.01uH/foot is impractical and probably could not be built without using superconductors or really wide copper strips, like a Goertz cable. |
Audioengr, you say that "like all cables in audio, shorter is always better." I speak with no engineering authority, but I want to suggest that this may not be true with power cords.
If shorter were better, than no cord at all would be best. Why not just continue the Romex out from the wall and hardwire it into the component? (Has anyone tried this?) This would be the equivalent of no power cord since the PC's function is simply to handle that last six feet anyway.
I think our collective experience would predict that hardwiring in this way would not be better, at least not better that what some of the great PCs do for our systems. This is because these cords are not merely supplying the last six feet but are also doing *something* to the power--filtering or whatever--to improve what gets to our components. If this is the case, it could be reasonable to conclude that longer might in fact be better because it will provide more of that whatever-it-is it's doing.
As someone once put it to me: If you like what your power cord does to the sound of your system, why wouldn't you want more of that? |
Warren,
From my experience I'd say that this is all incrimental. I'm using a Stealth too and yes things do get better again when you upgrade the cable that is feeding it. I would not say that the improvement is as dramatic as when I first installed my Stealth, but it's there. The question is how much money do you want to spend. It seems that there is no end to this power stuff. Don't go crazy with spending tons of money. I upgrade and play with things a little at a time when my cash flow permits. |
Drubin wrote: If shorter were better, than no cord at all would be best. Why not just continue the Romex out from the wall and hardwire it into the component? (Has anyone tried this?) This would be the equivalent of no power cord since the PC's function is simply to handle that last six feet anyway. I'm afraid that it is not equivalent. That last six feet of power cord can have 1/5 to 1/10 the inductance of the ROMEX in the wall. Therefore, if you run 36 feet of ROMEX directly to the component, and you compare this to 30 feet of ROMEX and a 6-foot low-inductance cord, then this is like 30 feet of ROMEX compared to 36 feet of ROMEX. The full-ROMEX solution will have higher inductance. Shorter is better. you can read more about inductance and its effect on a power feed on my website: http://www.empiricalaudio.com This is because these cords are not merely supplying the last six feet but are also doing *something* to the power--filtering or whatever--to improve what gets to our components. If this is the case, it could be reasonable to conclude that longer might in fact be better because it will provide more of that whatever-it-is it's doing. No, longer is still not better. There are two scientifically verifiable effects that power cords can have: 1) lowering inductance of the entire power feed 2) filtering the ground noise The second one has to do with ground-loops. IF your system is completely wired using balanced IC's, then this is a "dont-care". However, most systems are single-ended, and therefore prone to noise from ground-loops. Filtering on the ground lead of a power-cord can reduce or eliminate some of this noise, particularly at high-frequencies. The other thing to understand is that this ground-loop noise is not continuous. It is sometimes related to the signals in the wires itself, causing crosstalk between left and right channels for instance. This is because the ground-loop noise is realted to the voltage drops in the ground-return paths of the interconnects. Single-ended systems are a knarley problem at best... |
I don't know what magic that power cable can do but for $6000, you can get a state of the art turntable, tone arm, and cartridge. And I can guarantee that you will get much more enjoyment from that then from any $6000 power cable. |
Sidssp - I'm with you on this one .... and I'm a complete convert to CD's.. |
AudioEng then why can my M-F amp play music for 10 seconds with no degradation in sound after I turn it OFF? |
then why can my M-F amp play music for 10 seconds with no degradation in sound after I turn it OFF? If this is true, which I will take your word for, it is probably because it has a decent power supply with sufficient storage and minimal inductance internally. Have you tried listening to really intense musical passages at high-levels after you turn the power off? |
Increase dB from about 75 to 90 and still played for 10 seconds. Hope I'm not hurting the amp doing this so I'm not doing this anymore. |
Increasing the dB is not what I had in mind. I was thinking more that you need high-amplitude transients that are also loud, such as gongs or drum and cymbol crashes, or gunshots etc.. Need to compare these specific events when powered off to always on. |
