What amp should I buy to power Martin Logan Esl's?


Hi,
I currently have the Martin Logan ESL's and I am have a two channel set-up. They are currently being powered by a PeachTree Audio Nova 125. I am debating selling the Nova 125 and replacing it with something. What is the best Amp/setup to power these two speakers as a two channel? Is the Nova 125 sufficient for this task, or should I replace it? Thanks for your thoughts-
atepper2

Showing 6 responses by bombaywalla

read up on what an ESL looks like as a load to a power amp (you'll find that it looks like a massive capacitor). You can read this on Wikipedia & Sanders Sound Labs website. Once you assimilate this info, get an amp that can drive a huge capacitor & not go unstable (i.e. break out into oscillations). Your choices will be limited & will consist of expensive amps (hey, that the physics of an ESL!! don't want to deal with the expense? Don't get an ESL!). Also make sure that you buy low capacitance cables - they don't have to be expensive necessarily but they need to have low capacitance.
08-05-13: Bifwynne
Bombaywalla, how do tube amps mate with ESL/capacitive loads? I kinda' recall that tube amps "generally" like resistive loads with positive/inductive phase angles. Come to think about it, I'm not so sure that SS amps particularly like super-low impedance loads with large negative phase angles.
In general, tube amps do not mate very well with ESL/high capacitative loads.
Tube amps, generally, have a much higher output impedance (as you now know) & together with the ESL looking like a big capacitor, the combination acts like a low-pass filter with a low(er) frequency -3dB frequency. This will have the tendency to roll-off the high frequency content of the music signal.
Now, tube amps can be used with ESL speakers but, if you notice, these tube amps are physically large units. Examples are Tube Research Labs products, Wolcott Presence amps, large VTL monos, CAT JL2/JL3, etc. These large tube amps have many parallel output tubes thereby reducing the overall output impedance & widening the bandwidth of that low-pass filter created by the amp o/p imp & the ESL capacitor.
So, this is from the impedance point-of-view.
Another point-of-view is the ability of the power amp to generate power into a low(er) impedance load. Tube amps have a higher output impedance & when you consider the voltage-divider effect, as the ESL impedance goes down, the tube amp cannot generate sufficient power into that low impedance thereby giving you anemic sonics. Per Ralph Karsten's constant-power theory, the tube amp will change voltage output swing & current output swing such that the product of voltage & current will equal the max power rating of the tube amp. So, if the ESL impedance goes down, the current delivery will go up & the voltage swing will go down such that the product of increased current & decreased voltage will equal the max power rating of the tube amp. Most tube amps do not double their output power as the load impedance halves (like s.s. amps) so power delivery over varying load impedance is mostly fixed. OTOH, s.s. power amps have a much lower output impedance & will deliver much more power into a lower impedance (within the limit of their power supply/transformer). Thus higher current delivered into a lower impedance mostly makes up for the lower voltage swing that would have resulted from a lower impedance ifff there wasn't an ability to deliver enough current. IOW, ability of a s.s. amp to deliver more current into a lower impedance gives a higher voltage swing. And, this means you will get more robust sonics because pk-pk voltage swing generated in the speaker directly xlates to driver pistonic action (which is what creates sound).
Power delivery into a low(er) impedance matters a lot when we have a highly capacitative load because the phase angle of a capacitor is negative & the effect of this ph angle is to reduce the real part of the music waveform (when a music signal goes thru a capacitor, it becomes a complex waveform meaning that the waveform now has a real & imaginary part. the real part is what's of meaning to us as it gets converted to sound energy. the imaginary part is the instantaneous power dissipated in a reactive/capacitative element. Average power thru a capacitor will be zero but it will have instantaneous power dissipation). So, when the real part of the music waveform is reduced, you need to pump more power from the power amp to compensate (or submit to listen at a lower volume/an anemic or less dynamic signal). This is where tube power amps eventually come up short/run into their output power limit. Big/huge tube power amps fare much better & of course, s.s. power amps also fare much better.
you are correct in stating that speaker loads with low(er) phase angle shifts are much easier to drive & the power amp (tube or s.s.) is much happier in that sort of condition.
08-06-13: Bifwynne
Thanks Bombaywala -- very good explanation.
thanks for your kind words Bifwynne.

But I wonder how well tube amps that use NF fare with ESL loads.
I would think that tube amps using large amts of NF would fare quite well with highly capacitative loads from a purely electrical interface point-of-view. As mentioned by you in your post, NF would make the power amp measure really well on the testbench. I would think that you would get pretty decent sonics from a high-NF tube amp but what would be missing would be the soul of the music. I think that a high NF tube amp would never truly 'sing' to the music - it would have many of the audiophile attributes but would sound very clinical & non-engaging.
I forgot to write in my prev post - comments from other members who have experience with tube amps driving highly capactitative loads are most welcome. Hopefully I'm the person with the least amount of knowledge on this topic. Thanks.
Bifwynne,
In my post I did not intend to single out the ARC Ref150 (which I understand is of personal interest to you due to your ownership). I was referring to the tube amp-ESL match in general so as to not hijack the OP's thread. Thanks.
Best ML sound I have heard was off a Krell integrated amp about 4 years ago.
funny as that was my experience as well. the best M-L sound I heard was Krell FPB600 monos driving the M-L Statement E2 speaker. Krell CDP & Krell preamp. MIT cables. That was in the Sound Advice showroom when Gail Martin Sanders himself was touring the country doing these demos.
I still remember the sound today-absolutely fantastic! I wanted to run out & buy that exact system right there & then! Alas, when I was presented the bill I saw that it was in unobtainium land....;-0