We Can Make Classic Cars Outperform Today's "SuperCars": Why Not Vintage Audio?

@jssmith Glad your still loving the music produced by your old gear.  In your case, I wouldn't touch it either. 

@4krowme My Audio Desk CD cutter is my CD's best friend.

@edcyn You  nailed it!  And, yes, drag racing and competition car audio have not been kind to my ears.

@gdnrbob I agree. When the "total package" is considered, there's little argument that well-designed late model cars are the winner.  It depends on the objectives, I suppose.  And when you narrow the scope you can focus time (and, money) or specific criteria.  Like straight line acceleration.  The quickest 0-60 vehicle in my garage just happens to be the quietest and most comfortable. (Rivian R1T)  But, it's hard to beat the the top-down experience of a short wheel base convertible that likes to make "involuntary lane changes" and sounds like a pro-stocker when you get on the gas. (Sunbeam Tiger - 347, dual quads) 

Back to the point of this discusssion, the sonics of vintage gear can be improved by 60% while staying well within the parameters of "personalized".

Thanks for the comments.  

@roxy54 

"I personally upgraded or replaced most of the important parts of my McIntosh 2105 amp, including better input jacks and modern WBT speaker terminals, and it sounds better than several other amps that I've tried.'

It sounds like we're in agreement here?  So, you're saying your modified vintage McIntosh sounds better than some modern designs you've tried?

I also would not advocate "destroying the collector value of a piece".  As mentioned in my post, there is a gradient approach to upgrades and I personally support the ability to revert back to "stock" if the owner wishes to do so at some point.

@bigtwin Okay, I’ll see if I can save a little crediblity here.

Tom Bailey’s "street legal" ’69 Camaro ran a best of 6.73 @ 210.83 MPH in the 1/4 mile last year at Hot Rod’s Drag Week, and he drove the car home. The Bugatti Chiron runs a (very impressive) 9.4 @ 158 MPH in the same distance. Using the 1/4 mile to 1/8 calculator, the Camaro clicked off 4.2 seconds @ 160 MPH at the 1/8th mile mark compared to the Bugatti’s 5.9 @ 128 MPH. This puts the Camaro a minimum of 1.7 seconds ahead when the Bugatti reached this point. Calculating the speed and distance of the Camaro at 160 MPH, that’s approximately 250 feet per second x 1.7 seconds or 425 feet ahead at the half way point. This is a conservative number based on the fact that when the Bugatti reached this point the Camaro would have been traveling much faster than it did at the 1/8 mile mark. At the 1/4 mark, the Camaro was traveling 210.83 MPH or about 316.25 feet per second. Approximately the length of a football field every second. The Camaro reached the 1/4 mile mark less than one second after the Bugatti reached the 1/8 mile mark. Therefore, it appears that a "2 football field lead" is a plausible claim. I might be a few centimeters off, but I think the estimate is pretty close.

Hope that helps?

@danager First off, you are correct in your assertion that vintage cars in their best factory stock form cannot compete with today's offerings.  I recall an article a while back where the most "bad ass" car of the 50's -- the Chrysler 300, was compared to the performance of, you guessed, a Honda Odyssey.  Yes, in the 1/4 mile, slalom, and braking, the Odyssey was the clear winner. We've come a long way.

You make some great points.  Just not sure if they align with the premise of my topic.

@bruce19 You might be on to something.

@jkf011 @holmz I love the smell of hot rebuttals in the morning. Those "WTF" and "nonsense" moments pair well with coffee.

Unapologetically using yet another car analogy for a moment, maybe we should downshift and drop our speed down a bit before we reach the apex?

Here’s the car->audio connection. Maybe? Cars are relatable to most of us on this forum. We’re familiar with the exotics, and not-so-exotics. And, we’ve gotten up close and personal with vintage cars. Some of us drove them off the showroom floor back when we had hair. We also know there’s a healthy automotive aftermarket that can, quite literally, make a race horse out of the jackass -- in some cases. (Okay, I’m bracing for the "jackass" comments coming back at me).

There is little debate that cash, talent, resources and "newer thinking" can radically improve the performance of vintage/dated classic cars. When presented with a specific objective accompanied with "best in class" hardware/brainware, we can propel a old chunk of metal down the track pretty well. This is measurable, and well-documented.

Tossing a comensurate amount of cash, talent, resources and "newer thinking" at vintage audio can produce stunning sonic improvements that can be heard -- and measured. The issue here is not a technical or ideological one, but rather a lack of interest and/or economic viability. In otherwords, the interest level is low for serious aftermarket products & services, and sonic bang-for-buck may be questionable. Particularly, with a "collectable" piece who’s value would drop considerably if someone took a nibbler to the back panel.

The point of the discussion was to introduce the concept that the "audio performance aftermarket" is immature (at best) and there is latent stellar performance potential inside those chassis, or speaker boxes. I’ve spent a fair amount of time doing this at our shop. We expect highly predictable improvements in "A". "B" and "C". Most often, we get these in spades, along with unexpected improvements in "D", "E" and "F". (Yes, I’m ready for the "F" grade from you guys on this topic, too). I’d like to see real engineering and resources thrown at this. I’ll probably be waiting a while longer.

I consider myself very fortunate to have grown up around high performance cars and great audio equipment. I enjoy my cool/fast cars (modern and vintage) just as much as my cool stereos (modern and vintage). And, coffee.

Thanks for participating. Your comments are very much appreciated.

@jallan 

"New semiconductor designs, new capacitor designs, new precision resistors, new wire designs, better understanding of micro phonics and vibration control, etc. etc."

I totally agree with that statement.  How much of this technology can be embraced and migrated into older (vintage) equipment?

@ketchup Yep, Tom's Camaro is brutal.

 A little story:

A stock-appearing early Nova showed up at our local track (St. Louis area).  2-tone, white over black, baby moons.  Everything fit under the factory wheel wells.  The car was so cute you just wanted to walk over and pinch it.

It quietly made it's way thru the staging lanes and into the burnout box.  I was thinking that he was there making a tribute to the car -- to have documentation that he actually took it to the drag strip to hang on the wall.  The light turned green, and he launched it.  8.60s at 160 MPH.  The moral of the story here is that "Bugatti performance" can be had with something that looks more like a grocery-getter than a race car with the right engineering and aftermarket parts.  Twin turbos help, too.

Thanks for the comments.

@audition__audio 

"In no way can older cars compete with the newer "super" cars. Same, I say, with audio although the difference in this realm is not as great as in the automotive."

You are correct, sir.  My comments relate only to the (measurable) performance improvements in aftermarket add-ons/mods, not so much vehicles in their raw, factory trim.  My use of "Supercars" is simply to set a caliper for comparison, and not inteneded to diminish the crediblity of that class of vehicles.  Nice reference to audio in your statement.  I have to agree with you on that one, too.

@tablejockey 

"If one has a Marantz model 7 preamp, 8B amp and 10B tuner, you do not even think about "modding" it. Same with Mac."

I couldn't agree more.

@lancelock 

Good for you.  And, thanks for the (highly) relevant post.

@raam 

Rick, I want to be more like you when I grow up.

Thanks for the level of participaton on this topic.

The last discussion I started had fewer posts than an invisible fence.

Gentlemen,

Great posts!!

I am not suggesting that we "paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa" with this topic. If you love everything about your vintage gear (including its current market value) then leave it alone.

But, for others it doesn’t have to be a "this" OR "this". It can be a "this" AND "this". We don’t have to make the decision whether we want the vintage look and feel OR great sound. We can have both. It’s like having your vintage gear. And, listening to it, too. The maturity of the "aftermarket performance audio" industry is not well developed, to say the least. I use the parallel to cars as proof positive that older cars can perform as well as their contempory counterparts - within the specific performance parameters selected. Today’s vintage cars perform better, handle better, are more comfotable, reliable, and safer due to the success and ingenuity of the aftermarket. Many vintage car enthusiasts love their old cars -- AND, enjoy an elevated driving experience over showroom stock. Likewise, may vintage audio owners would appreciate a higher level of performance from their gear, but simply aren’t aware that non-intrusive upgrades exist, or don’t know how to connect to them.

@gphill 

Nice cars.  Nice audio gear.  And, nice post.

@crustycoot 

It not difficult to pick up your level of passion and intensity related to the climate.

Its a complex subject and I hope we adopt "correct" policies to produce the best outcomes.  In a podcast I viewed last week, the presenter estimated that the cost of human life to bad environmental policies was between 1 and 10 million lives, and counting. Getting it "right" matters.  If we can free ourselves from the shackles of the rigidity of political partisanship, we might just accomplish something for the greater good.

@seikosha Not sure I would call it "simple", but the items you mentioned are certanly a factor. Manufacturers are very concerned about reliablity and serviceably -- as they should be. They also have to be concerned with "balance" which to say the overall driver experience, comfort (including passengers), safety, and esthetics are major factors. With an old car with an emphasis on performance, you don’t have to drag all those other costs, developmrny times, regulations, etc into the mix. You just make it go fast. Or, stop fast. Or, pull the G’s you want in the turns. Or, all the above. You could layer those emission requirements for aftermarket gear on a vintage car and still produce good performance numbers. It would just be much more complicated, burdensome -- and expensive.

@holmz Impressive analogy.

It all works well until you fracture a voice coil?

@rar1 Well stated, sir.

"You have modernized it to some degree, so it is not vintage anymore." Our thoughts are in alignment here. As I stated in one of the posts, when you take a nibbler to the back panel of something, there’s no going back. Modifying gear would certainly have an effect on its resale value. Thus, my catagories of "stock", "personalized" and "modified". We’re made a lot of car comparisons in this thread. I’d say most "car guys" cruise around in "personalized" vehicles, where very few have "modified" vehicles and even fewer have "stock" vehicles. Although the Holy Grail of collectables is "showroom stock", we’re also seeing "personalized" or even "tribute" vehicles scoring big bucks at auctions. This is relevant, or course, to the class of the vehicle. "Messing" with a vintage Ferrari would have greater penalties than yanking the original drivetrain out of a Tri-5 Chevy and replacing it with some modern "motivation." Or, putting the drum brakes in a storage container and opting for disc brakes all around.

Another pertinent item is the value of vintage cars vs vintage electronics. While serious car projects can easily propell you into six figures, the bulk of esteemed classic gear may fall into the mid 4-figure range. There are exceptions, and those pieces should be bubble-wrapped, put in a climate-controlled space with a barbed wire fence errected around them. But, it’s a comparison that really not a comparison. You may loose $50k on a vehicle because you were a bit too enthusiastic with your "personalization", but the "fees" attached to aggressive mods on your hifi gear are far less. In otherwords, in terms of our net worth, it probably won’t move the needle. Even if the piece is used to prop a garage door open. (I have a friend who scored an old Mac amp that was being used to hold a garage door open. He offered to replace it with a brick from Home Depot and owner went along with it. True story.)

"Nostagia" has a different meaning for all of us. A good example of a relic from a by gone era may border on the threshold of "sacred" for some -- especially those who have an emotional attachment to that particular piece. Hey, I have a pair of listening chairs up in the loft that gave me comfort while listening to music when I was going thru some pretty tough times. They are not for sale. I work one day a week with my tech for the sole purpose of keeping good gear out of the dumpster. I’ve learned never underestimate the emotional value of bringing something that’s been in storage for decades back to life. It’s routine to see grown ups brought to tears when the front panel lights up, and music comes out of these boxes. Especially those pieces formerly belonging to a deceased family member or friend. I’m considering the purchase of an old gas station about a half hour from my home. There are enought automotive collectables per square foot in, out, and around this old building to make it interesting as an investment. But, a stronger motivator for me -- it’s just really cool. American Pickers would have a good afternoon hanging out there. So, I "get" nostalgia, memorabilia, and emotional attachment to old audio gear.

That being said, it’s hard to be persuasive when your trying to describe an experience that others haven’t had to opportunity to take part in. I can only say when you take these old pieces and "get things out of the way that make them sound worse," you’d be surprised by the "audiophile characteristics" that emerge.

The ultimate tribute to a vintage piece may be to take it to a level of sonic realism that the original designers could only imagine at the time. And, it looks the same. Functions the same. And, gives the same (or, more) satisfaction as it did the day the proud owner switched it on for the first time.

Hey, guys.

Thanks for the great posts.

It occurred to me that we’ve been "hot rodding" audio for quite some time. We’ve been demoting OEM cables and storing them in their original shipping containers and replacing them with premium cables for quite some time. Even modern gear benefits from newer and/or better thinking, and we don’t need a soldering gun or mechanics tool set to improve their sonics with devices we plug in or insert into the factory chassis. As @jonwolfpell indicated, in the case of the Mac MC275, a lot of modern offerings are "factory hot rodded" versions of older (even Vintage) models. Factory authorized "hot rodders" have been around for long time in the car industry, too. Guys like Shelby, Yenko, Roush, Cosworth, Saleen -- even Hertz (I’m sure I’m missing some of your favorites, sorry) have gotten the full factory blessing -- including keeping the original warranty intact.

It was not my intent to agonize over comparisons between cars and audio. My examples were simply that the (very successful) automotive aftermarket can produce impressive results -- including topping the "best of the best" of modern day offerings in some respects. I tried to take the discussion out of the stratosphere of unaffordable cars and into the real world with the Monte Carlo reference where a mid-sized sedan with the right aftermarket setup (and, a skilled driver) can appear to break the laws of physics and hold it’s own in twists and turns against modern sports sedans.

I remember some words of wisdom from my old home automation days: "Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should." We need to take the "measure twice, cut once" approach to modifying our gear.

As with vintage cars, your approach to vintage audio is highly relevant on how you, individually, approach the hobby. It depends on if. and how, you drive it, race it, show it, see it as in investment and just wipe it down with a diaper on a daily basis. IF your time behind the wheel is just as important as your admiration for the marque, then upgrading the performance,saftety, and comfort are rational choices (could save your life in a precarious situation). And, there are pretty of resources to make this happen. As mentioned in an earlier post, IF you cherish and listen intently to your vintage gear the ultimate tribute would be to take the performance of the piece to a level that the original designer could only have imagined.

And, just for fun ...

"Big Red" Camaro

@aubbrin570 

I got involved in drag racing at a time when AA Fuel Dragsters were just breaking 200MPH in the quarter mile.  Now, guys drive their cars to the tracks and go faster than that.  1,000HP "at the wheels" is not a rarity in "daily drivers" today.  My Rivian R1T (835HP) is the quickest vehicle in my barn of pretty serious hot rods.

I agree with you on the speaker basics.  I do have to inject that "the stuff inside" has gotten a lot better.  And, those old speakers can really sing when you get things out of the way make them sound worse.

@fraterperdurabo Your post deserves a "yes" on all points.

It's interesting what a 5 cent investment can make replacing the D-clip with an O-ring to keep the idler wheel in place on an old turntable. 

My topic focuses on the lack of maturity in the "performnce aftermarket" for audio gear.  Here we go, once again, on a car analogy (sorry).  I would say that 100% of the guys who drive "cool cars" are aware they can make them perform better with aftermarket parts and/or application of newer technology.  Yes, straight line grunt, but also, handling, comfort and safety. I would say that 90%+ of them have done "something" to enhance the performance of their vehicles (if they actually drive them).  Moving on to audio, I would say that less than 10% of vintage audio owners know that there a sonic gains to be made, and less than 1% have actually done something.  I've seen remarkable transformations in vintage gear while retaining its "showroom stock" appearance and functionality.  

Thanks for the post.

@moto_man It’s not very useful sometimes to take a "logical" approach to "illogical" purchases. Emotions are intangible, and if we’re trying to make the math work, we’re going to be left scratching our heads.

Big receivers were the "big block Chevelles" of the day. Muscular, and "the brand" to own was, well, THE brand to own. Porche 911s were a different critter altogether. More refined, better all around performer, but didn’t have the "correct number of cylinders (8)" and didn’t come from the correct factory (Detriot). Not even on the radar for American muscle car enthusiasts.

Now more nostalgia. Tube amplifiers, although sonically superior, were priced out of range at the time, and were more complex. You needed a preamp, AND a tuner, AND more cables, AND more space. AND more money. The power ratiings were also lower, which to raw horsepower guys were not very appealing. And, yes,, a big receiver would play louder. So, the incidence of "big receivers" vs vacuum tube separates in the homes of the "average" consumer (whateve that is) was very high. So, the walk down memory lane to tube gear is a narrow path compared to mass appeal to "mainstream" big power receivers.

Your buddy bought the big Marantz because something drew him to it. I can’t tell. you what all those factors might have been (he owned one, a buddy owned one, he always wanted to own one, or ???) but I can say for certain that sound quality "bang for the buck" was not one of them.

Who’s to say what factors contribute to someone’s enjoyment of their music and the hardware that reproduces it? He could have spent $2k on a new bike, or tire/wheel upgrade for his car. He spent it on hifi gear. And, should make us smile.

@fredapplegate @secretguy 

Gents,

The premise asserts that the automotive aftermarket is alive and well, producing great results, and the "audio performance aftermarket" is non-existent. I believe this is a true statement.

I'm going to jump right in and defend the modified classic car vs "supercar" statement.  When presented with a premise one can connect the dots in anyway they see fit.  That's what's fun about open forums.  That being said, my premise was not to suggest that "old cars" can outperform any supercar on all parameters, but merely gave a couple of examples of how they hold their own within a specific performance criteria when "newer thinking" and aftermarket goodies are installed.

To get right down to the nuts and (lug) bolts of it, here are some measurable outcomes:

A "street legal" '69 Camaro was clocked in the 1/4 mile approx 2 football fields ahead of a Bugatti.  This was challenged by a participant and I backed it up with the math.  600 feet might have been conservative.  By the time the Bugatti reaches the 1/8 mile (1/2 half way) mark, the Camaro is less than one second away from the 1/4 mark and going about 55 miles per hour faster at that point.

Another '69 Camaro hit a top speed of 266 MPH.  

Not long ago a vintage car (might have been the above Camaro?) just destroyed any production car in 0-100 and 100-0 times. So, that's a combination of acceleration AND braking.

I don't have good examples of small tracks and tight corners to compare to supercars, so I'll give today's supercars the advantage here.

As the lyrics of the song says: "Two out o three ain't bad".  And, if a scoring system were set up for best overall score, some would declare the old cars the winner.

Which takes us to the questions:

Can aftermarket technology make cars make more power and go faster?  Yes. Can aftermarket parts increase the dynamic range of an older audio system?  Yes.

Can aftermarket parts make cars stop faster? Yes.  Can aftermarket parts make our systems sound tighter and more controlled?  Yes.

Can aftermarket parts make cars more agile? Yes.  Can aftermarket parts make our audio systems more detailed and focused?  Yes.

Can aftermarket parts make "the ride" more comfortable, smoothing out bumps in the road and staying flatter in the corners?  Yes.  Can aftermarket parts reduce strain, harness, and listening fatigue?  Yes.

I'm glad to see this little topic is still getting "hits".

By the way, my Rivian R1T accelerates from 0-60 quicker than many exotics at 5x it's price.  But, I don't call it a supercar.  Or, supertruck for that matter.

Thanks for participating.

John

@invalid Good point. It’s just a matter of time.

We’re improving the power/weight component of batteries. But, as one keynote speaker said at a convention I attended: "If you keep making these things smaller and more powerful, what you’re going to end up with is called a bomb."

It’s going to be interesting to see how this develops. Hopefully, we’ll have it figured out before the law requires us to drain the "fossil fuels" from our existing hot rods and turn them into museum pieces.

Gents,

We’ve had some hits and misses on this forum, including some from the OP. From what I’ve learned from you, I’d like to submit some closing comments:

- The objective of acheiving the best sound, and in particular, best sonic bang for the buck, is a completely different conversation than when someone loves their old gear, listens to it, and wants it to sound better. BOTH are valid.

- Old cars are relatable to most of us. Most old car guys have benefited from the aftermarket to make their driving experience more exhilarating, more controlled, and comfortable, or ALL of the above. These same objectives CAN be acheived with old audio as well. The level of awareness of the existence of "performance parts" or "newer technology" adaptable to their old gear is very low, and there aren’t enough of us around who have actually "modded" our gear, are quite exuberant about the results and want to share our experiences.

- I underestimated this group’s fondness of "supercars". I’m a car guy whose taken part in multiple forms of racing from an early age (55+ MPH go cart at age 11). I am in awe with esthetics, agility, and brute force of the new exotics.  Getting behind the wheel of one of these is on my bucket list. Didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers. Just wanted to make a point about just how good aftermarket parts and "newer thinking" can be when applied to old iron -- relative to modern"reference" material.

Thanks to all who participated.

It was a lot of fun to be part of the conversations.

John