Wave Kinetics NVS Turntable - Stereophile Review

Dear Peterayer: +++++ " sharing these test data for various owners tables if we really want to "know" the truth. " +++++

IMHO the main subject is that almost no one " wants " to know the " true ", audio fun could disappear.

The " true " could tell us how wrong we are or how right we are or in between.

Right now we are really happy enjoying what we have and we almost don't care if it is wrong or not: " I like it and that's what matters ", this is a common sentence for almost all of us when we are questioned when we are on " serious " doubts about.
We always take the " easy " road: " I like it that way..... ".

Audio manufacturers know that so they neither care about the " true ".
Why to take the risk to know that some of their designs are way wrong and have no answers to fix it??????

So for almost every one it is more " healthy and with more fun " walk on the audio road at BLIND, almost.

As with TTs the situation/scenario is almost the same with tonearms or cartridges or electronics or speakers or...or....
Something that makes to know the " true " a little complex with TT is that's a mechanical device where the " results " of a design is not 100% predictable as can be with lectronic designs, at least I don't know and never read of a TT mathematic model that can predict a 100% result or very near to it.
Do you know any single person ( manufacturer, reviewer, audiophile, retailer, any. ) that could tell you what to measure and which kind of measures and where to measure and how to measure and how have we to blended those measures to predict TT results through different designs through different build material TT designs through different TT drive designs through different kind of TT bearing designs through a different price targets?

Problem is that no one cares about, till today no one took the " bull by its horns " and developed that mathematic TT model that could serve ( at least ) as a preliminar reference for TT designs or for electronic/speaker/cartridge/or whatever audio item designs.

Pro.Reviewers does not cares neither: it is a high risk for them that all of us could confirm how wrong they are or not at all.

So in absolutely " SILENCE " there is an agreegment already made it inside the AHEE where all we belongs and is sad and pity ( for say the least ) and almost a shame for all of us that are inside the AHEE to stay doing almost nothing about other than closing our ears/mind to suggestions for changes down there in favor of MUSIC in favor to IMPROVE TRUE IMPROVEMENTS on what we are experienced today.
Gentlemans, fun does not disappear only will change with those changes.
I don't know for all of you but for me thinking to have NEW AUDIO FUN EXPERIENCES ( true new audio experiences. ) is just EXCITING!!!!!!!

As I said: shame of the AHEE.

I have no doubt that we deserve what we have because all of us help to build it and still do it every day. I know for sure that all in the AHEE are a lot better ARCHITECTS that what we showed till today so: WHY NOT JUST LET IT GO! WHY NOT ADVANCE! WHY TO STAY STICKY WITH THE SAME FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS!.

HAVE WE THE RIGHT TO ADVANCE OR WE ALREADY LOSTED?

A good Agon friend of mine whom lived in the past for 15+ years with tube electronics changed to SS ones and today after several years with he is seriously thinking to come back to tubes again, to the " magic " he said!?!?!?!? and that's how we are and what we deserve. This is not a critic to this person that I respect but only an example how we help builded the today AHEE.
Could be wise for this person to think in a similar technology of what he own ( SS ) that could be an improvement?, because I know there are other way better designs out there that what he owns. Anyway, only as an example and nothing personal.

Don't you think is time to make true and real changes for the better? why more of the same if it is not wroking at all?. We are unsatisfied with what we have and almost every day we are changing what we have: TT, cartridges, cables, speakers, electronics, tonearms and the like.
We changed for something new hopping for a real improvement hopping to advance but after a few days/weeks or months we take in count that we advanced almost nothing and then we start again ( endless again. ) a new audio item hunting looking for that advance that almost never comes.

IMHO we have to make our selfs things happen!. We have to be the active actors/protagonist of this movie picture name it AHEE and not mere unsatisfied passive spectators waiting for?????????

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

IMHO MF Caliburn early unit or not has no single excuse about speed accuracy/stability for those 140K+ dollars!!!!!

and he writed what for me has no common sense coming from a " pro " reviewer: " that due to of-centered LP spindle hole the accuracy on speed is not so important ( something like this. )..." How any one but MF could speaks in that way?

I forgot, in the constant Caliburn defense he writed on the Onedof review a sentence about the unique Onedof TT bearing:
"""" A few years ago,MD ( then with Continuum Audio labs, showed me a prototype for a similar bearing designed for Continuum.... ".
I don't think that trying to diminish the main Onedof design characteristic is a way to make honest not biased reviews.
The Caliburn not needs that kind of " help ", the Caliburn has its own merits with and with out MF " help ".

R.

Peter: AHEE: Audio High End Establishment.

R.

Dear Vicks: Well MF has good reason$$ to give that nod to the Caliburn. Is sad to tell but today I trust less and less on " pro "-reviewers, no one is un-biased. Yes, through the years I learned many audio subjects from them but now???

I trust higher in every single NVS owner as all the ones posted here because some way or the other all of us " mere mortals " are looking for the same: non-biased ( $$$$$ ) highest quality performance level on each one audio system to reproduce recorded MUSIC.

I love the NVS looks and " only " for that I could be a proud owner, unfortunately I have not that kind of money but I hope to have sooner or latter the opportunity to give a listen to.

Now, it is obvious for all the first hand testimonies that something different is happening down the NVS " land and this thread gives me an opportunity to share some thoughts that I had and have for years with no true or real answers elsewhere, maybe the NVS design is that " answers ":

what suppose that a TT must do, a perfect TT ( theory )?: spin with absolute accuracy at 33.1/3rpm with no speed fluctuations in the very short and long times.
Making that job in absolute dead neutral vibration/noise/resonances-FREE playback to transmit NOTHING to the platter and from here to the LP and obviously nothing from the TT to the arm board.

This is IMHO the first main TT target and the second one could be : to aisle the TT from external induced vibrations/resonances/noises.

There are other TT design targets but the idea is that the TT it self has NO single " negative/positive " influence in the cartridge/tonearm work: we are looking for dead accurate and neutral job, a perfect TT.

Well, we all know that that TT does not exist ( at least I don't know it:yet. ) so any one of us has not that REFERENCE to compare against it.

Each one evaluation/comparisons we make it against other similar TTs and through our each one experiences these are our reference(s) but we really don't know how the perfect TT could " sound " we don't have the true reference at all ( the ones that likes R2R is a different reference and I don't want to open other " window " about. ).

So what are we hearing/evaluating through any TT as the gorgeous NVS? is it a real improvement? is it to be nearer to the perfect one or only different kind of " distortions " that like us more?

We can/could think that we are nearer to the perfection because the new TT ( NVS ) sounds to us better compared on what we heard/owned in the past.
Some of you mentioned Rockport or Walker but IMHO we can't compare two TTs where in one we have a different tonearm than in the other.

In the other side we have not almost any single information/measures from almost any single TT manufacturer that could tell us: how near or away is that TT design from that first main target design:
+++++ " absolute dead neutral vibration/noise/resonances-FREE playback to transmit NOTHING to the platter and from here to the LP and obviously nothing from the TT to the arm board. " ++++ ?????

That for me is critical and an important subject for us as an audiophiles and customers. I would like to know for sure where I'm seated.

All of you know that sooner or latter will appear another " perfect " TT that we will like it more than the NVS and that's will be because it is the " perfect " one or only a different handle of distortions.

If I'm going to pay 50K or 150K for a TT: I WANT TO KNOW.

IMHO as an audio item customers and as audiophiles we have to improve our self and be more exigent with the audio item manufacturers for them take the job to design products that really fulfil our quality level expectations to enjoy the MUSIC in a near perfect way.

So what are you hearing through the NVS or what you own? the perfect one? or are we hearing only a good TT where we paid for it not for the highest quality performance but for its weight/kgs?

The trend on the last years on TT designs is: more $$$ for more metal kilos and I think that the weigthy ones are still to come. No, I'm not saying that the NVS is only that: kilos, NO and yes I would like to be aproud owner of it as any one of you!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Seems to me that you don't own a TT but a server for all your stuff. Maybe can't understand exactly what I meaned.

R.

Dear Peter: Electronic design has several mathematic modeling computarized tools for circuit design and layout circuit design. We used those tools as a tool for our design and to help avoid errors/mistakes on the circuit/layout design but all those tools does not predict how the design will sound but could help to predict how it works at electrical level under different circumstances and how well works the different circuit stages stand alone and as aprt of the whole design. Yes, it is a useful tool to start with an audio item electronic design but as I said it is only to start.

The whole electronic design is more complex because it is not only dependent on the designer skills/knowledge but dependent on passive and active parts where even that two similar parts that measure exactly the same performs different and this fact makes " things " a little complex and time consuming.
No we don't designed at " blind " we use several tools and made it several tests of almost any kind.

Some famous electronic item designers as J.Curl choosed a very wise/clever road to design: he meet/asociated with other persons to design and build audio electronic items. He did it with that CTC Blowtorch phonolinepreamp where he was the circuit designer, C.Thompson the circuit layouts and B.Crump the test and parts selection.
Today he did it the same with his new electronic design audio items: Constellation Audio amplifier, line stage and phono stage. He joined other three experts to the whole design, now he only needs a good marketing manager.
Try to be surrounded with other designer experts is an alternative to design in better way when we have no " references/tools " about.

TT/tonearm design is a mechanical design a " mechanical circuit " against an electronic circuit. I'm not a TT designer or an expert about but from my ignorance level I don't know or I'm unaware of the existence of similar tools as with the circuit electronic design, at least I don't know it.

This TT " mechanical circuit " for me is almost unknow and I think that with out those modeling tools is almost impossible to know if the final product meets the design targets in an abjective manner. In electronic circuits we have several kind of references on how any part perform, each circuit part has the whole manufacturer specs with tolerances and limits for the part stay stable under any playback electrical/temperature scenario to performs at its best.

In the " mechanical circuit " we have almost nothing about we have almost no references to evaluate the operation and performance design.
Examples: which target can we choose on a TT design for S/N ratio or wow&fluter or platter weight or whci build or blend material we must use?, 100db is the right spec for S/N, why not 60db 04 75db? 0.001% on W/F is the right " figure " or is enough 0.28%? which kind of vibrational energy ( coming from every where but mainly inside the TT. ) and at which " output levels " must be avoided in the TT design because the cartridge take it as part of the recorded grooves and will be amplified? how and at what level have we to stop/disappear the self TT vibrational energy feedback, how ? why aluminum or acrilyc or steel or brass or which kind of blend TT build materials are the ones that fulfil the targets at each circuit/stage in the whole TT mechanical circuit? how to handle and stop the vibrational energy generated between the stylus/LP and TT platter and its feedback? 3.0kg. on the TT platter is right or we need 200kgs and why. We really need that crazy weight, in favor of what? is it true that more mass/weight produce or could produce higher vibrational energy to deal with?

I think I have more questions than answers. Another problem with mechanical circuits as the TT and tonearm is that are not stand alone circuits but that are " slaves " of the cartridge and it is this intimate relationship the real " trouble " to success.

I don't know what you expected from what I could answer to you post. There are several subjects around there almost endless to post about and as I said I'M not an expert on TT but I know some TT experts/designers are reading this thread and could be healthy to everyone that they decide to put some " light " on the whole TT subject posting here.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: +++++ " Framer gives the nod to his Caliburn but a close call. " +++++

Reading carefuly the Onedof and NVS reviews IMHO today MF knows for sure that both TTs outperform his Caliburn.
He wants that we believe that both TTs have some " trouble " to even the Caliburn that for him is a " perfect " TT!!.

Why not to think or see the other way around: that the Onedof and NVS TTs have lower distortion/coloration that he seen as a " trouble " in both when he likes the higher Caliburn distortions becaquse that better dynamic/alive in the Caliburn could be distortions/colorations that are not well damped in the Caliburn design.

I don't heard the NVS yet but I don't think for what the owners posted here that the NVS has any kind of dryness as MF wants that we see the NVS quality performance level ( with the Onedof the MF objections seems to me has the same " defense " attitude for the Caliburn. ).

Even that the Onedof showed a better speed accuracy/stability than his Caliburn he write a fast excuse about telling: " that his unit is an early one and that he knows that in today units changes were made about ".

Onedof and NVS are more accurate than the Caliburn ( at least on spedd. ). Why MF can't think that that critical fact is a problem with the Caliburn performance against " perfect " TTs as the Onedof and NVS?

After all those years MF is still writing for rooky/newbie audio readers, his mistake.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Lewm: +++++ " Thus the Caliburn will win all shoot-outs in his system. " +++++

well you put in the right short words and tha's exactly what I want to express through my posts.

The problems he detected with the Onedof and NVS are problems with both TTs but he can't imagine/figure in any way that the real " problems " maybe came from the Caliburn that's not so " perfect " as he thinks.

I'm in agreegment with you and with Halcro regarding that almost no one could have the opportunity to have those three TTs in the same system to make an evalutaion but to agree on this fact does not means I have to believe on the " perfect " MF.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

In the other side it is " weird " that every time that appears a thread about NVS TT ( like the one that was deleted. ) the same persons post almost the same trying to diminish the NVS TT. This thread is no exception and obviously as some of us already know exist a specific " agenda " from this group.
Yes I'm refering to the German group.

Some Agoners already suffered first hand the direct actions coming from a member of that group where between other things are especialist to clone today audio products speaking as his own design: the same cloning speakers that electronics too.
After some time we now see them again in Agon, now that " the water return to calm " and that maybe they think: " every thing was forgotten ".

Take care all of you.

R.