Warm and Detailed S.S. Amp?

Odyssey amps have a 'warm' sound, and are a great bargain to boot. Detail, speed and power are all there. For $2k you can get a used pair of their Mono Extremes.

Marco

i would like someone to explain how one can perceive warmth and detail from a stereo system or component.

I'll take a stab at that. My guess is that most are using the word "warmth" as the common metaphor frequently used here and elsewhere to describe a certain coloration of the upper bass and lower midrange, just as you've surmised. The 'detail' may be coming through elsewhere throughout the range, while the region that primarily defines the descriptor is being slightly softened, colored or distorted (however you want to look at it). As in another thread I'd point out that we are all just struggling to put words to describe something each of us perceives rather uniquely and individually. They are hardly adequate in most cases, but I'd say the general consensus in responses here reflect commonly held observations in many cases. Certainly I can say they do in the case the ones I've heard myself; Pass Aleph, Odyssey, Plinius, McCormack. Now please just don't start talking about "Accuracy" or I'll blow a fuse!

Marco

if warmth implies an attenuation in the lower treble, a component cannot be warm and detailed.

You are the only one who's mentioned attenuation in the lower treble. I don't think all the amps we're talking about here necessarily have that defect ("defect" being your opinion). I'd associate warmth more with the upper bass and lower mid. In my mind, it does not negate detail. I've heard tube amps that I'd certainly call "warm" or "colored", yet some exhibit hair-raising detail. Most of those have been P/P or pentode. The Mesa Baron I had for a while comes to mind.

I prefer tubes as well, overall, but I have heard several SS systems that I've enjoyed very much, and have not found fatiguing to listen to at length. Nothing specifically that comes to mind with planar speakers though, as I have had little exposure to that realm. My good friend just got a pair of Maggie 20.1's which I'll no doubt be hearing frequently with various amps, knowing him. So if I hear something SS that I like I'll let you know.

Marco

Nsgarch - My system pix are dated and need revision. My Klipsch horn speakers are temporarily in storage. I listen primarily to two systems, one tube, on SS. Along with the Muse 2+ DAC, which I still love though it is long in the tooth as far as current technology is concerned, I also use a Wavelength Brick (also a great DAC). Dedicated circuits, power conditioning, decent cabling, blahbadeeblahblah. I enjoy both systems. They sound entirely different. I don't give a tinker's cuss whether either could be called accurate, or either could be called "colored". Both are very easy to listen to at length, both very compelling. I enjoy listening to certain music more on the tube rig, and other music sounds best to me on the SS rig. They are quite different, and have different strengths and weaknesses. The tube SET system is very seductive and dimensional. The SS is more detailed and impactful but has a more 2-dimensional soundstage. The SS is currently in transition (I just changed amps). I agree that SS can be very enjoyable in its own right and does not have to be fatiguing or hard on the ears. But I kind of missed the point you were making in bringing up my system and comparing it to your current system. Could you clarify that? I may be missing something.

I'll third the Bedini vote (not the pasta, the amp). I had a 25/25 for a while that was a very enjoyable amp. I would have called it a 'warm' amp as well. I'm sorry, Mr. Tennis, but I'm not versed, nor inclined to such objective and analytical ways of describing and understanding this stuff. I can say that I've heard SS amps that are fatiguing and unpleasent to my ears as they were implemented, in spite of the fact that others seemed to like them. I've also heard SS amps that sound great and do many things right. Does this imply they fit your criteria. I have no idea, nor does in concern me, (nor should it). For whatever reason, and I cannot pin it down to frequency response, I would probably call these amps "warm" sounding if pressed to put words to it, and some of them also exhibit remarkable detail. But perhaps they might be the very amps that you disdain.

Marco

Grant - Yes, I have been very impressed with the Panache over the past year. It is a difficult amp to fault. I've replaced it for now with an Odyssey dual mono. It does some things better, but then there are also some qualities it is missing. The Panache has a midrange purity that is hard to beat. Nothing I've had over the years did a piano like the Panache did. What the Panache lacked, in my experience, was low end muscle and it was also not the last word in resolving detail, both of which I've found the Odyssey does better. Ultimately I wish I could have both, of course. Currently I've been running the Odyssey with the Cary SLP-50a as well as direct through a Benchmark DAC1 I'm borrowing. The latter combination I do not like at all...in fact I really haven't found much to like about the Benchmark DAC at all. The highs really grate on me, and it has a very amplified sound to it, rather than a natural presence. These characteristics have shown themselves in several configurations I've tried it with. Just one opinion though...obviously some folks like it a whole lot, I'm just not one of them, or haven't heard it with the right system. Going direct through the SS system, it sounds on the flat side and I do not find it engaging in any way. As I stated before, it can be quite harsh in the upper mid and highs. Going to the tubed Cary Pre, the Odyssey is wonderful...dynamic, engaging, with a commanding hold on my Silverline SR17's. I would certainly call it a warm sounding amp with the tube pre pushing it. I've yet to try an SS pre, but I will at some point soon. Alas, it does not do Piano like the Panache did. Overall, the strengths it does have were enough for me to make the change, and experiment a bit more with SS and some added power (though it is only 80watts more it does seem to play out as a greater difference for some reason). I'd say the Odyssey is a more overall balanced amp, where the Panache's primary strength was in it's midrange purity. I do miss that. Though I still find with most of the music I favor (acoustic, vocals, small ensemble stuff) the SET system is what I prefer to listen on, I still would not kick the SS out of bed for eating crackers. I do miss my horns, but they're just too large for our modest house. The SET system currently is played through Galante Rhapsody speakers, which do very well indeed with the smaller space. Not as lightening fast and dynamic as horns, but then again, what is?

Marco

Newbee - I did not use the Cary with the Panache, but with the Odyssey dual mono. The Panache is an integrated amp (actually, technically it's not quite that since the pre, I believe, is a passive stage - look to their site or one of the many reviews online for a technical description. The Cary SLP-50 A-version is reportedly one of Dennis Had's personal favorites. I can tell you that synergistically I have found nothing better to use with my 300B SET amps, and I've tried a few. One did surpass it recently, but I have not listened to it at length to be sure...it was an FET based SS preamp that was designed and built by an audio engineer friend of a friend. I hope to give it a more lengthy audition at some point. I have tried most of George Wright's preamps, as well as having owned a prototype Modwright when Dan was at that stage with the SWL 9. Also an ARC LS-2B modded by GNS. The latter two came off as a bit cold and analytical sounding. To be fair they each worked very well in other systems. Also Dan has changed the SWL 9 significantly since the prototype (which I did like very much with Quicksilver Mini Mites). I'd like to try one of his production versions. The prototype worked extremely well in a Push/Pull tube system. Also, I've owned a Cary SLP-50B which uses 6922's instead of 6CG7's - didn't like that at all - highs were too hard and the upper registers in general seemed exaggerated compared to what I was used to (and preferred). I had the 50A and 50B at the same time and tried several very nice NOS 6922's in the 50B. I didn't like it as much as the 50A. It never lost the edge on the upper register. Can't recall the others, but there were a few. I can't say I've tried it all by any means, but I do keep coming back the SLP50A for what seems like a great balance of 'warmth' and detail. It definitely has a classic tube, glowing round the edges kind of performance. I am not under the illusion that it a world-class performer, but it does enough right that I've kept it as longer than any other component I currently have. It's really the only preamp I've tried with the Odyssey so far, and it works very well there as well, but I look forward to trying other options. A friend of mine might be bringing over his SLM70's (modded to switch between Triode and UL), and if he does I'll be trying them out with the Cary and will let you know. I like those amps very much in his system. I've heard them with Quad 988's and Harbeths...their sound somehow reminds me of the character of the SLP50A preamp. I've heard them with a Audible Illusions pre, and with a CAT pre. I never had the chance to compare and listening sessions were too far apart to tell the difference, but I enjoyed both combinations. My friend much prefers the CAT - He is Agon member Peter_s if you want to write to him - I bought my Odyssey from him as well, and he's the one with the FET preamp I liked so much with my SET amps. I don't really know how much his SLM70's share in common with your 50's though. On another note, one nice aspect about the 50A's is that NOS tubes are relatively inexpensive and easy to find. The current production tubes I recently tried out from EH are awful in that preamp. I like RCA cleartops and JAN Sylvanias in there. EH robbed detail and dynamics from the NOS choices. But, if I had to wager a guess, I'd bet the SLP50A would impart warmth to your SLM's so may not be the direction you want to pursue. On the other hand, they are usually very reasonably price and extremely easy to sell, so buying one to try out is no big risk. If you were nearby you could certainly give mine a whirl.

When I'm searching for input on a component I always appreciate that someone has posted it so the search engine picks it up. I don't consider marginally off-topic information to be "clutter" so I'll post this here, and ping you separately. As always, YMMV.

Marco