Pick either one and be happy.
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>> had a fully tweaked Scout and my brother a well upgraded Gyrodec. No contest.
I recently switched to a Gyro SE from a Teres 255ish and I have to disagree with that statement. I find the Gyro to be different, but not worse, than a teres. One of the areas the Gyro is different than the teres is in the PRAT department, and some might prefer the Gyro is this respect. Funny thing is I used to have a Gyro before the Teres and at first I thought the teres was better in a no contest way, but after long term listening I welcome back the refresing perspective of the Gyro over the teres.
Your impressions are interesting Bmckenney. I have heard both the 135 and the Gyro, though not for an extended time in my home. I thought the Gyro was far and away superior to the 135, myself. In fact, while I do like the Teres 200 series tables, I don't really care all that much for the 100 series. Interesting that you went back to the SE after the 255. Was it soley on the basis of PRAT?
I haven't heard hear the Tecno or Scout in person. People seem to rave over the Scout, but what little I've heard of the Tecno has also been quite positive. If it's anything like Michell's other tables, I bet it would be a damn good one. I understand the Tecno does use the Gyro's inverted bearing, platter (minus the weights) and DC motor--all very good signs. Both 'tables are upgradeable and I doubt you'd be disappointed with either. If you can listen to either in person, I think that would be the best way to decide, though if it's not a possiblility, then I understand your pain--pickins are slim in my area and I've taken a chance on gear more than once;)
>>Was it soley on the basis of PRAT?
Sort of. In addition to that, I believe that the target wall mount and shelves (custom Skylan and/or Neuance) I have were not the best match for a high mass deck so its an implementation/environment thing for me too. But I would say that I'm now a believer in the 'theory' that high mass decks rob music of the life/prat/essence of music on vinyl. I don't see that teres does anything to handle resonance other than throwing lots of mass at it and this results in a dull presentation that I personally find boring and takes away one of the important reasons I love vinyl. I also I feel the wood plinth and armboards are not machined to a high tolerance and this can affect the arm if its out of tolerance, but this can be addressed with some shimming so it wasn't the real signficant factor in my decision.
I only know what I read on his website. The armboard kit looks like something that is affordable, reverseable and effective so I would like to give it a shot after I complete a couple of other projects first. The main chassis suspension mods look entirely more expensive and irreverseable, but also interesting. It sure makes me wonder just how important getting the spring suspension correct on the stock Gyro is. Have you ever played around with different settings on your springs?
I agree w/ Bmckenney and 4yanx's comments. Owned a Gyro SE (newer version w/ DC motor) for a year and was very impressed. Very dynamic and resolving and yes plenty of PRAT. I sold the Gyro to upgrade, but ended up having to downgrade instead, eventually to a Nottingham Horizon. I was frankly a little disappointed in the Nott, but to be fair I'm comparing a $1200 table to a $3500 Gyro SE/SME arm. I'm now thinking of trying the Technodec myself since I still can't afford to get back into a Gyro, but I wonder if the Techno, w/out spring suspension, will sound anything like the Gyro. Thanks.
Hello, I have played with the springs however when I reached a point of satisfaction I left well enough alone.
Gert Pedersen suggests that the plinth mod makes a great deal of difference so much so that he suggest that I stay with the qc and ac motor and not upgrade to the orbe platter. I am using the ol 250 with a tranfiguration spirit and tube equipment with vandersteen 2ce sigs. I am happy with the gyro however it has been 2 years without change and I would like to uprade the source and that doesn't have to mean changing tt's. Any suggestions??
Tlh28, I collect turntables and have a variety ranging from high-mass unsuspended to classic 3-point suspensions. Sprung suspension turntables do major on PRAT, which is why I love them. Why restrict yourself to new like the Technodek? Make a major money savings and get yourself a true king of suspended 'tables, an Ariston RD11 (in "S" version as well), once considered the best in the world (usually $200-$300), or a used Linn LP12 for more money. If it's PRAT you want (plus a healthy dose of detail, both being true "high-end" in this sense), then these'll fill your bill without breaking the bank. In fact, owners of the bigger Gyrodecks have been known to defect to these 'tables.
As to why high-mass decks sound "slow", this is belt reaction (stretch and contract), the heavier the platter, the slower the reaction, eventually being heard in the bass frequencies, where rhythm lives, and is consequently destroyed.
To tell you the truth, I don't know. Neither one of them would be bad choices. I would guess that my personal choice would be depend on the rest of my system. And if I were to let my system be the deciding factor right now, I think it would be the Michell Technodec.
And I am just saying that on a haunch.
I prefer my Gyro SE to both the VPI MkIII and the LP12, I and I definitely prefer my Gyro to the Nottingham Interspace, though I only heard that one briefly.
I msut agree, if you're willing to go used you can have a superb setups on your budget. If you keep your eyes peeled, you can find a used Gyro SE, an OEM250, throw a dropped counterwight on (and do further mods later as you have the cash) and used what's left of your buget for the best cart you can get your hands on (just make sure your preamp will get along with it). Properly set up, my Gyro/Origin Live/Clearaudio setup sounds heavenly! Think I paid something like 1200 for my Gyro, was a year old, latest version =)
Guys: The reason I norrowed the search between the Tecnodec and the Scout is because I can't really afford the next step up, so even the entry-level teres is out.
I guess I was hoping to here from those who have directly experienced these two TTs and might be able to relate how they compare.
As for my system, I'm down-scaling to an integrated set up, relying on an ASL MG15si. My thought for right now is to concentrate on my front end. Later on, amp-wise, I'm going to end up with a SET amp like a Cary 300BSEI or a push-pull integrated like a VAC Avatar (which has a built-in phono stage, incidently).
At any rate, I'm intriqued by the Teres 130 suggestion. Can anyone send me any pics/specs of this TT????
If you are the adventorous sort you should go for Gerts mod. I have heard that the heavy orbe platter with the denso damp isn't all that its made out to be too. Especially the denso damp. The platter might be a good upgrade though. That might give you the upgrade you want without changing decks. You might also consider the newer power supplies from Michell. When I had my first Gyro SE it had the AC motor and I upgraded to the QC powersupply which as a very significant improvement. There is the VC power supply or the new never-connected power supply. I think artech lists the never-connected as an Orbe upgrade, but I believe the arctech tech told me it can be applied to a Gyro too. Other than that, I'd consider getting a top flight cartridge from Japan as another possible source upgrade option. One more idea that just occurred to me is getting a custom Gyro specific Neuance shelf from http://www.neuanceaudio.com/
"...the heavier the platter, the slower the reaction, eventually being heard in the bass frequencies, where rhythm lives, and is consequently destroyed."
I strongly suggest you consider the "Creature on Steroids". Take this from a hardcore salsa fan...
"Guys: The reason I norrowed the search between the Tecnodec and the Scout is because I can't really afford the next step up, so even the entry-level teres is out.
/I guess I was hoping to here from those who have directly experienced these two TTs and might be able to relate how they compare."
I apologize for not having the information you seek. I guess my point was that with a little looking around and a little luck, you _could_ have the next step up even on your quoted budget. For instance, say you find a used Gyro at $1200, add an OEM250 from here on the 'Gon and upgrade the couterweight (there a few to choose from) at $300, and spend the remaing $300 on the cart of your choice--Clearaudio, Dynavector, Shure, and Grado all make excellent ones; I'm partial to the Aurum Beta and Beta S, having owned both--and voila, awseome setup within your bedget, and plenty of room to upgrade later. Alternately you could forget teh weight upgrade and sink the extra hundred into the cartridge...you get the idea. Alternately you could get a new VPI MkIII plus the 250 and cart at your budget, and that would certainly be no slouch, either--and none of it would have to be used, that way.
Just food for thought--again please accept my apologies for not being able to answer your questions directly, but hopefully this helps you in some way :)
Just received my Technodec tonight and set up. My initial impressions after 2 hrs. max. are favorable. Compared w/ the Nottingham Horizon I had last fall, I think the Techno maybe has greater extension on both HF and LF, but perhaps not quite the "body" of the Nottingham in the midrange. Granted, I only have a $60 or $80 Grado on it (can't recall which model and no longer have the box), compared w/ some more expensive cart. I have used in the past. (I used Clearaudio Virtuoso, VDH MC10 and Goldring elite w/ the Gyro, and kept the Elite for use w/ the Horizon, but also had the inexpensive Grado as backup for all three tables.) I think perhaps the Techno doesn't have quite the extension or sweetness on top of the Gyro SE I owned for a year, or the same degree of attack on notes -- the Gyro was clearly a big step above the Horizon in that regard and of course better than the Techno. Also, keep in mind that I'm now using $700 quad 11Ls as speakers, compared w/ Ref. 3A de Capos w/ the Gyro and Living Voice Auditoriums w/ the Horizon. Having heard a Spacedeck a couple times (though in unfamilar but very expensive systems) and having owned a Gyro SE for a year and the Horizon for about 6 mos., my personal view is that Michells have slightly more extension on both ends, but Notts may be preferred in a system that needs a little more body in the mids. JMO.
Dirty: After reading Tlh28's initial impressions of the Tecno, I think that you have offered some good suggestions. I just bought a nice VTL phono stage, and I think that it will be able to handle everything that the Gyro can throw at it. Hopefully, I will be able to find a Gyro for around $1,200 (which is what a new Tecno with a 250 is going for). Then, try to find an RB300 or modded 250 for 2 or 3 c-notes. Perhaps a Grado Sonata or a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood (I'd like to buy 'em both used and swap 'em out). That would push the $2k envelope, I reckon.
I guess this means that I have to work a few more overtime shifts. Ultimately, the difference, comparing used to used, would be around $1k to get started. I have already been a couple of months without a TT; I'll just have to deprive myself a 3 or 4 months longer.
Thanks, everybody, for your input. I'm determined to go for the Gyro. I think now that if I bought the Tecno, I'd always be thinking, "I wonder what that Gyro sounds like?"
Yeah, do the upgrade now.
I just got my tecnodec. I am using it with a Denon DL103 and Trichord Dino phonostage. On first impressions. Super fast (even compared to the P3), much more detail that the Rega. I'll post more once I get to listen longer.
Also: I have seen some good offers for the tecno on audiogon recently. Right now the table without arms seem to go for around $600 (for 1 month old). Can't be beaten at that price....
I wonder how a Tecnodec with Tecnoarm would compare to a Gyro with RB250?
I have a question about your Technodec. The motor pulley on my Techno has been making some noise. I am wondering if there should be a washer between the motor assembly and pulley, or if the pulley should be fixed (ie, glued) to the motor spindle? When I opened the box, the pulley was loose from the motor, and I simply placed it on top of the motor spindle, but it seems to have some play and makes a slight noise when on. I have called the dealer, and he is checking w/ the distributor, since he was not too familar w/ the Techno, but have not heard back yet. Thanks,
The pulley on my technodec was loose as well when I got it. The pulley has small set screw on the side that I used to fix it to the motor (I needed a metric key). You have to be careful though that there is a small clearance from the pulley to the motorhousing. It should not touch the housing, which might be causing the noise on yours. The pulley on mine is now just about 1/2 mm away from the housing. This way the motor is dead quiet, quieter than my planar 3 motor and much quieter than my old linn.
I am curious though if you hear something from the distributor. What was strange to me is that most manufacturers glue the pulley to the motor, since the setscrew usually causes excentricity. I am wondering wether the Gyro has a simlar pulley. Maybe somebody with a new Gyrodec can answer this question?
Just a bit of an update. After 53 hours of overtime, I was able to buy a used Gyro SE with rega rb300 arm and a temporary cartridge (Sumiko Black Pearl)--$1,200.
So far, I'm very happy with the results--and that's just after about a dozen or so sides. Things will probably continue to "settle in." I am running a modded VTL 2.5 phono stage, and this combination is oh-so-musical. Lots of authority in the mids and lowers.
The next step will be the cartridge. I just wonder, "how low can I go?"--in terms of output. My phono stage provides 60 db of gain (plus whatever my linestage adds--probably about 15, if that). I would really like to try the Shelter 501 (.3 mV ouput, I believe). Would that be okay? Any comments are welcome. I don't want to get into adding any step-up qizmos. Anyway, I have an email into VTL, but who knows when they will write back . . .
Okay, thanks, all, for your insight and encouragement. I'm enjoying vinyl again!
Crazy: Congratulatons to your Gyro SE. I might have to wait a little longer to upgrade my Tecnodec to a Gyro....
My DL103 has an output of 0.3mV, for which I used the 63dB setting on my Dino stage (actually the lowest MC setting the Dino has). The 70dB setting was too much in my system. What also made a small difference in loudness was changing the loading impedance from 100 Ohm to 1 kOhm. I don't know what other people use as their setting so it was good in my case that I could play with different ones. From my limited experience I would say 60dB is enough for the 0.3mV Shelter
Might be worth starting a new thread to see what amplification and loading other people use for the Shelter 501. By the way, Crazy, are you considering the new Shelter 301 as well? I am hoping that some people will try it out and report in a thread.
I suspect that 60db before your line stage will be plenty for a 501, unless you have a VERY low gain line stage.
I have a Shelter 901, similar output to a 501 (.1mv more). The 67db of gain I have before my line stage is much more than sufficient. I rarely turn the gain control past 9:30 or so, 12:00 would blow the house down.
If you do go with a Shelter or other lowish compliance cartridge, look into whether Twl's HIFI Mod can be fitted to an RB300 somehow. It might take some ingenuity due to the arm's non-symmetrical bearing structure. But it's worth it.
Crazy... I have the Gyro SE with Shelter 501 - which I believe is .4mV not .3mV. I any case, it has plenty of gain with my Plimius M14 phonostage (60dB gain for MC) and Lamm LL2 preamp. Another tweak I tried with the gyro is to use very stiff springs and washers under the armboard in place of the solid spacers. This allows infinite adjustment of VTA and azimuth (even while the record is playing if you're careful!). I've been warned by Gert that this could intoduce some noise in the arm as springs can "sing" but the only singing I have heard is coming from me as I listen to my LP's.
Hi, all. Thanks for all of your suggestions. I got a really good deal on a .9 mV Benz Micro Glider, and it's doing a great job right now. There's more than enough gain; my records play louder than my CDP, which is the first time I've ever experienced this phenomenon. But I'll go ahead and stick with this set up for a while. My system is supposed to be "Budget Minded," so I know that my back end probably is not totally up to the front end--but it's still pretty fun. No, there's no need right now to start hunting for the perfect cartridge. The Glider is performing really well right now.