Hi,
yes I am sure I have the SB2 option as I can see the silver base at the top of the cartridge.
I temporarly fixed the issue using the screws supplied by VPI (they came with the TT) that are heavier than the screws they come with the cartridge.
With those screws, pushing the couterweight all the wai in I can measure a tracking force of 1.95gr whch is basically what I wanted to have.
the only thing is that the coutereight is pushed all the wai forward and touches the base of the arm.
I don't know if this might be a problem for the sound or not.
Am I wrong by saying that the closest the counterweight to the pivot of the arm the better it is?
If so, then wound't it be a good thing the fact that I have to push the weight all the way in?
I will check the fine adjustment's screw.
BTW the lifting cue mechanism is released and the arm is freely moving and there is no external antiskating installed. |
Hi John,
thank you for yuour post.
I have listened to the cartirge a couple of hours yesterday and it is so dead neutral that I am very, very impressed.
There are a lot of thread stating that the 4D is the same as Atmos.
I don't know about that, but if it would be so , then, your previous Universe, would definitely have to outperform your 4D.
The tracking is perfect, although I am going to make better regulations today with my Mint LP and the Azimuth with the meter (I did it yesterday but I didn't spend so much time on it).
I will probably attach the little bolts to the longer screws (although the ZYX comes with the Zn's option i.e. litle bolts on the body of the cart) and that should add some little weight to it and maybe I will be able to move the counterweight a little bit back from the unipivot.
But it is still unclear to me: is it better to have the counterweight as close as possible to the center pivot or not?
I will probably look into the heavier counterweight from VPI and now I am going to check the internal screw inside the counterweight's stub for for weight's fine adjustments and see what's the situation. |
Tom,
I have just checked now and the screw is all the way out toward the outer part of the counterweight's stub, which accordingly to whay you say would suggest that it subtracting (I don't know how much) some weight.
I will screw it all the way in and see what happens. |
Hi Mark,
thanks for your post.
If have noted there is another user that had the same exact result but using a SME and Gra tonearms.
Neither one of them is unipivot.
So I guess it is not the toneare none is the matching since I have ran resonance (later and vertical) test and it is withing range.
The sound in outstanding, don't get me wrong.
I am just trying to understand if there is way to match the test tracks ot not.
I am starting to think that ZYX are designed not to track those tracks...I don't know it is something strange.
If the cartridge is extracting a Looott of details and information, why can't it track those test tracks that instead my old rega and denon did with much less retrivial information and detail and everything.
I will probably try damping fluid too.
Thank you for your tip. |
Hi,
thanks for the advice.
I did know they make this extra base.
The pick up has already one that takes it from 5gr up to 7.9gr.
I wouldn't like to add any other external body i.e. any more resonance, if it was possible.
If test with clay will go good then I will definitely go for the stainless steel's armtube.
I will keep you guys posted. |
Hi Doug,
thank you very much for your reply.
You are the expert on the ZYX cart, so I won't comment on that.
Just an aside though.
The ZYX Universe either copper or silver or gold, even more so, they all cost more than the 4D.
How is it possible that a Silver copper coil of a Universe could sound worse than a 4D?
That would lead me to think that the 4D might be a better cartridge.
But if you say otherwise it must be the way you say since I don't have even a close experience you have on cartirdges.
All I can say is that the 4D is a terrific cartridge.
The only complaint is that, on my system, you tell in 2 seconds whether a record is a good pressing or not..and...if it is not...you take it off in 2 seconds.
I guess it is a positive thing...but I am finding out that the majority of the software I have has to be chucked.
Now for the weight issue:
1) I have tighed the screw in the back and I was able to back up a liiittllee bit the counterweight that now is not touching the unipivot's torret.
2) the weight is set to 1.95gr, and the maximum I can reach by touching the unipivot is, I guess, 2.1; my question is: accordingly to the specs of the manufaturer, the maximum weight is 2.5gr. Isn't good practice to set the weight to the maximum weight specified i.e. 2.5gr? do you have experience with this cart and the ideal tracking force?
3) I am still afraid for the antiskating. I haven't set the external mechanical anti-skating system. You told me on another post it wasn't going to skew the cantilever...I really hope so.
4) for the VTA, is it better to have the pick up perfectly parallel to the patter or a little bit sitting up on the record? |
wow so much useful stuff all at once.
It sounds really complicated to me.
I screwd the the screw all the way in and I moved sligly back the counterweight, but enough to not having it touch the pivot.
I regulated the azimut with the LP test and my Fluke 45 and I had to move the Azimuth Ring a bit, but I guess that it is normal.
The difference on the two channels now is on the order of the 0.01mV which is very good.
With the Azimuth ring a little bit twisted the weight is slighly increased without having touched the counterweight's position...so now it is 1.98gr or something like that (I am going off with the precision of my Sure stylus gauge).
Now I will recheck the alliment with the Mint LP.
The only thing that I find it odd is to find the parallel line or reflection on the Mint.
The cantilever sits a little bit on the inside part of the body and thus I have to incline a bit the magnifier and I am finding some difficolties to line it.
Beside that I will try to contact VPI as soon as they will re-open on the 13th and see what they say.
The only problem I see with the antiskating now is that, if I will insert the mechanical ring, it will considerably push the counterweight back and It will screw up the tracking force.
Nevertheless even at VPI they told me they were running a ZYX cartiridge without AS and they didn't have problem with the cantilever. |
P.S. I am going to buy Magic Eraser this afternoon to keep the stylus cleaned as you suggested many times. |
just a quick note.
I hope it will help people who will have the same problem I had.
The solution is to take the screw for fine adjustments off the counterweight's stub.
That way the counterweight will be a little bit away from the unipivot.
Now I have set the tracking force up to 2gr and I can go much higher if I'd like too.
it seems to work much better without the screw and that is what mike told me to do.
I'd suggest to all owners of VPIs to take that screw inside off and regulate the tracking force only relying on the counterweight.
it takes a little longer but it is not impossible, of course :)
Hope this helps.
thank you all for your advice. |
Hi,
thank you Doug and Srwooten.
- I know, regulating just by moving counterweight is very tricky and affects azimuth too, I will try your method.
- When I set the weight I am pointing at "time two" 's scale.
- Sometimes I brush after magic eraser some other times I forget. I am trying to become more consistent; nevertheless, I always check the diamond with a 10X magnifier after I am done playing one side or so and it looks really shiny and sharp.
Yesterday I found out an interesting thing I want to share.
During these 10 hours or so of listening, I have noticed a little distortion sometime on the right ch with some records.
So I have checked and re-checked the alignment, the azimuth, VTA and VTF several times and found them to be all good.
So finally yesterday I put the test record on and scoped the output.
I have incredibly found that the system was unable to even track the first tracking ability's track (12dB) so I was kinda of desperate.
I started to tweak the wire, twisting and untwisting it and after many attempts I have gotten the 12dB right.
Nevertheless I was unable to make the following tracks work.
SO I decided to just give it a shot and listen to it.
Difference was huge and distortion that was heard before was gone.
aside not:
my old rega 300 and denon 103 were able to pass all the 12dB 14dB 16dB and almost the torture track (18dB)
Now my question is:
why wouldn't a VPI and ZYX 4D even try to pass at least the 14dB tack?
I mean just by regulating the tonearm to make it track the 12dB made a huge difference I cannot imagine to make it track the following tracks. |
Hi-FiNews Analogue Test LP |
well Hfisher...you have the very same problem I have.
I can only track the first one.
It seems very strange to me.
my LOMC Denon was capable on the Rega 300 to track 12dB,14dB, 16dB...BUT.....I had MUCH more mistracking that I do have with this cartridge and sound was miles away from ZYX and VPI.
So all in all...it might be true that there isn't a strict correlation between test records and music, otherwise, since Denon almost tracked the 18dB's the sound should have been galactic and no distortion would have ever been heard.
I would like to investigate this further on though.
I am going to call VPI now and I want to hear their opinion, then I will post the conversation to keep you all up-dated. |
Ok I just got off the phone with Mike from VPI.
First of all, all the honors to this company and the guy.
The best courtesy ever experienced very knowlegdable of what he talks about, of course :)
Now, he said that
1) when measuring the weight on the gauge, always make sure that the armtube is parallel to the platter when pick up sits on the gauge. if not, when the pick up will go down to the record will likely track 0.2gr or so lighter.
2) since the ZYXs like universe or atmos or 4d are very light and even with their silver base's option they won't reach let's say 10grm, the problem is on the weight and resonance of the system. So what I should try is, putting 3-4 gr of clay and rebalance the arm and see if I can get to the second and third track...which I should supposedly get right.
Hope this hels me and everybody else with my same problem.
P.S. for VPI's users it might be better using a stainless steel armtube instead of aluminum when mounting a ZYX |
a little update.
I have reached out the 14dB track.
In order to do that I had to untwist the external wire a lot and there are only few twists left therefore I won't go any further.
I am wondering whether I am ruining the external wire by doing that or not.
I don't see any other way to get up there without doing so.
The next track i.e. the 16dB is unreachable though and I can't even have the needle laid a second because I see such a bad distortion on both ch that I am afraid for it.
So I think this is it.
yet, my old rega 300 and the cheap 103 where able to easily step up to 16dB.
Now I am curious to check, after this adjustment, if I can still hear distortion on the carimna burana's one. |
Now, I tested the system with 3-4 gr on the headshell.
Tracking is a little bit improved.
By Increasing tracking force up to 2.1gr I am tracking clearly one ch of the 14dB's while the other ch is in distortion due to lack of antiskate force.
I tried to compensate untwisting the wire on the lemo connector.
Situation improves on the 12dB's and a little on the 14dB's but not enough to let me track that one.
The most "interesting" thing I found are the 3 spaced tracks at 15dB.
I cannot track any of them, of course, since the maximum I can track, I guess, is 12dB BUT while the 1th and 4th track are distorted but still they are coming through somehow, on the last one the pick up won't even try to stay on the grooves but it will skip directly to the end.
That is really bad. It shows lack of ability to track grooves.
I don't know what else is left to do in order to improve this aspect! |
John,
still, Universe is supposed to be better like saying Airy 3 Vs. 4D or Fuji vs. Airy 3.
There is no doubts that one is better than the other, beside they are surely different too.
So all in all, besides the difference the Universe should have still been clearly better.
But hey, people who tried the Atmos vs. Universe had no doubts about it and went back to the Universe.
If it is not the case now, I would say something is different :) .
BTW, I do not listen to test tracks.
But hey, you got to set your system up first, don't you?
As you would say, when I was testing it I just had the cartridge mounted on the tonearm for a week so...it's not like I am still listening to HiFi-test!!! |
right....I saw your post here and I was referring to you.
A question though:
I assume that sme has an antiskating system on the arm.
Do you have it down to zero or set?
I personally start thinking that ZYX are so particular that they are meant to be this way.
Nevertheless after I got the 12dB right and increased tracking force to 2.15gr I don't hear any mre noticeable mistracking..but all in all I have been listening to it for few hours.
I will definitely keep you guys postet on the eventual progress.
BTW speaking with Mike from VPI he told me that I should be able to get the 14dB and 16dB's one..but I don't know if he was being optimistic or what :)
I will find that out hopefully next week. |
Hi,
it has little hours.
Something like 15-20hrs.
I personally don't think the brake in is going to make that difference though.
Also because, Hfisher has the same problem on SMEV and I suppose cart is fully broken in.
My question is: have you checked the tracking with a LP test and oscilloscope?
Or if you don't have an oscilloscope but you do have a LP test, you are able to listen through your speaker and discern whether the cart is tracking or not.
By chance, do you have the mechanical antiskate on?
If not, have you untwist the lemo connector a couple f turns to increase antiskate or you installed it as it comes and that's it?
Last question: what do you use to align your cart? Mint LP or normal jig and what is the tracking forec you have set? |
I just want to outline an incredible pressing that you guys can look into as very hard test for your analogue system:
Carmina Burana volume 2 - Version originale & intégrale
When I put this record on, you can tell the incredible dynamic of it.
The only problem with my configuration is that I hear distortion on the most engaging parts and now I know it is the tracking abilities of the system that starts bothering me since there is a $4500 on cartridge and almost $4500 TT (Classic, SDS, Peripheral, HRX Clamp) plus there are even more so in cables (Mit Magnum Phono and Magnums M3.3 interconnects and Shotguns S1 BiWire speaker) and more in electronics and speakers.
All in all this tracking thing starts getting into my nervs because I personally don't expect tracking problems from such hi-end system.
The sound is really great and I bet since the price of the items, but technically speaking something better can be done!
Just a question to users of VPI and ZYX: do you have stainless steel armtube or Aluminum?
I actually don't know if my armtube is aluminum or stainless steel, how can I distinguish which one I have?
If anybody owns the record I outlined (Carmina Burana Harmonia Mundi HM336) and can tell me if they hear distortion or not I would appreciate.
I would like to work this out as there is no way that VPI and ZYX are designed so poorly. |
yes it is the Carmina Burana Vol 2 Harmonia Mundi on LP.
It is very nice but I can hear distortion, I mean it doesn't come through perfectly clear all the time.
I assume it is my tracking though.
But I have listen to the Carmina Burana on Telarc LP and I can never hear any kind of distortion.
After my last regulation I have gotten 99% right the 14dB track by untwisting the connector a little and increasing tracking force up to 2.35gr.
I decided I will follow your advice and let it run for other 15-20hrs and see how it goes from there.
BTW do you have carmina burana n Harmonia mundi?
Now to answer to John:
of course my denon and Rega didn't sound like this.
My concern is that by regulating the AS and tracking force precisely enough to get up to the 12dB's one I heard a big step forward and so did I when I got up to the 14dB's.
This tells me that there is a correlation between test tracks and sound, but that is not everything.
BTW I do listen to music too :) |
P.S I tried to email you back but it bounced back...maybe your account is full?
I wanted to tell you that I have on the manual the 7124.
ehehe. |
thank you very much for your comments.
Based on what you said I will let the cartridge loosen up for anther 20hrs (i.e. 2-3 weeks or less hopefully)
BTW the sound has changed quite a bit in these last 5 hrs.
I think I am up to 25-28hrs so it is too early.
The only thing I am concerned though is the tracking force I am dialing in.
I had increased it up to 2.35gr right now and it seems to be better on the tracking test in fact that's how I get the 14dB's.
Listening shows a better tracking and more details although a bit less of air but all in all very balanced.
I don't hear any mistracking except with the harmonia mundi's.
I will put that record back in in a couple of weeks and see what's changed.
BTW What is the tracking force that worked the best for you? |
Hfisher,
that sounds strange though.
If you have sme V and antiskate on you should be able to pass at least the first two tracks.
I don't know about the third.
I personally don't hear any mistracking anymore after the last regulation.
Please check better you alignment with MintLP, because you should be able to easily pass the 12dB and also the 14dB's one.
I have read that 100hrs are required for the cartridge to fully brake in.
But anyways I am sure your cartridge is not defective and neither is your tonearm, so I assume you should check better your alignment and the VTF/AS's combo.
Do you have an oscilloscope to scope the output taken from your phono's output?
Last, have you checked your azimuth with a precise DVM and track n.5 of side 2?
That is important too.
I live in Wisconsin if perhaps we are close that would be cool. |
P.S. eheheh I just saw from your profile that you are from Canada .... never mind them :) |
Yeah it won't affect that much, I do agree.
What affect the most is the VTF/AS.
It is really strange though.
I can tell you right now: it is not a matter of brake in if you don't track the first nor the second (12dB, 14dB)
I bet you have distortion.
I had some little distortion too when I didn't have the AS right at least for the 12dB's.
After I got that one going the improvement was huge.
I will probably try to re-lower the VTF down to 2gr though and see...not sure yet |
gotcha.
The I was correct, I understood you tracked the 12dB's but you posted something here that sounded like you were unable to track any of the 3 tracks.
If you then track the 12dB, how bad is the distortion on the 14db's?
Is it on both channel? Lots of distortion?
I have now 99% good on the 14dB's. One ch is perfect while the other one is juuusstt the little top cres.
But since I don't have any powerful antiskate install I can't go any further but since you have the AS system you shouldn't have problem to get this one 100% right. |
Just a little updat.
I have re-set the eight down to 2gr and lower the antiskate so just enough to get the 12dB's one thus the 14dB is not distorting.
Sound is ver clean dynamic and crisp.
Harmonics are comning through.
The funny thing is that I hear less distortion that when I had it set up for the 14dB's one.
I will hopefully do more listening in the next days.
But anyways it is true that ZYX works properly at 2gr. |
If people are still reading me, I just want to ask Hfisher:
have you ran the lateral and vertical resonance test?
Side 2 track 2 and 3.
If not, please run it and tell me what your results are.
They both should be around 10Hz.
I have ran the 2 tests and I found out that without any extra weight they are both on the 16Hz which is not quite right.
I guess I will have to look into the stanless steel armtube.
Let me know. |
Hi,
Instruction on the record are poor, that's is true.
Nevertheless I wouldn't say that this record is worthless.
I find the azimuth's track and the resonance test very interesting indeed.
Moreover, I think, and it's been proven to me by listening tests too, that adjusting the antiskate (minimum adjustments) to be able to track the 12dB brings brings up a lot of sonical improvments.
I can't say the same thing for the 14dB though which I had to back up after a couple of hours of listening.
So my understanding is that the 12dB is required to be able to properly track most of your records.
Beside my cartiridge now might be at 35-38 hrs so it is close to the normal behaviour I assume.
I think the matching with tonearm is important and the resonance tests are created for this purpose.
If I have a resonance test at around 15-16Hz, I assume that this should affect the sound and the tracking abilities somehow, and that is what Mike told me right away.
He told me to check it out because resonance has to be around 9-11Hz and he asked me to contact him back after have done certain tests because the stainless steel armtube might be the solution otherwise.
I will keep you posted. |
BTW it is the first time I see this interpretation on these tracks.
Thank you for sharing your understanding.
I will reflect on it |
yeah, I will use the shure gauge to chek that out....I will do it right now...and get back to you.
P.S. Mike said that most of the time pwople make the mistake of measuring the VTF without having the arm resting parallel but sitting back and that gives an higher reading for the VTF then what you actually gonna get on the real situation.
In this case I will give the reading with the arm sitting a little as I don't want to move the VTA as I don't have the option of the VTA on the fly :( |
VTF reading says 2.6gr!! so when the arm rests parallel then I guess it would be 2.55gr or something around that.
I mean, I would have never set that VTF myself....but I guess that this is how the cart performs the best...as it does sound much better though.
I am wondering if I have to change that as the cat ages and how I realize when it is about time to change it. |
Yeah, I know.
That is how they have set it though.
I don't know if I want to change that or not.
I might be in the future.
How do you like your 4D? is it the copper low version? |
this totally makes sense to me.
Passing a 14dB track on a certain position of the record cut at a certain speed makes no sense whatsoever.
All in all at 2gr and a little antiskate I can track the 12dB.
the point is though that the next little buzing track would be the 14dB's one.
Now at 2rg I have the left ch left with a little bit of distortion while the left ch has more distortion.
If I were to balance the 2 distortion I would have to increase AS in this case.
Anyways I have contacted VPI and I definitely feel like say how incredible their service is and I strongly reccomand to buy their products for the quality of them and for the customer service.
Anyways I talked to Mie and told him the resonance problem and he told me to send him back cartridge and tonearm and they wull replace it probably with an higher mass (perhaps Stainless steel) orr add weight to it and properly set the system.
They are amazing.
I am going to send the package after 5PM and hopefully next week I will be able to get it back and then I will post the changes.
BTW the sound at 2.3gr and more AS wasn't that horrible, I mean it was still great.
I just thought that there was a little lack of air and I felt like there was less definition and soundstage less defined so I stepped back and that confirmed my impression.
Thank you Dough for sharing with us your kwnoledge. |
I think I was the one saying about 100hrs...so my mistake.
I have read it somewhere but I can't remember where.
Well, the only problem with it was that the tonearm was too light for the combo so VPI which is a GRAT company is willing to help me out.
I am sure everything will work out great and I will post here as soon as my tonearm...ememe....and my ZYX 4D....will get back from the trip at VPI's industries :) |
Arm should arrive this week accordingly to what Mike told me.
So as soon as it will get here i will post impression. |
I got the stainless steel armtube...the package is supposed to arive this morning....so as soon as I will get it I will post in more details.
k
Anyways, since the arm was there I asked Mike to wire it out with the Nordost wire. |
ok..the arm is back...
I had to screw the allen wrench that is by where the wire comes out and set it till the arm was free of moving then connected the lemo connector in and lets go.
The sound is terrific now.
There is so much difference from before that I don't understand where it comes from...just the wiring, the alignment, the proper tracking force...or the twisting...
All I know is that now it sounds really wonderful.
They told me they have set the tracking force up the upper range (which means I think around 2.5gr).
So just to reply to Dough, the sound at this tracking force is fabulous.
There is air, dynamic, there is a huge soundstage back and front.
Speakers completely disappear from the room.
It is really nice now.
The arm is stainless steel and the counterweight now sits a little bit past out the center point of the stub which is the ideal point I think, while before was right by the unipivot.
It is really nice.
I will go and have some more listening to try to compare some well known records. |
Nice system.
Your experience is very interesting.
you are the second one on this post who had a Silver universe and now likes the 4D better.
Too bad it wasn't a Copper Universe so that we would have ended this Saga, where people thing the Amos=4D
I personally don't think so.
I still don't think that a Silver Universe can sound worse than a copper 4D just because it is Silver.
Absolutely not.
Even reading reviews around the world where they compare the silver vs copper, they talk about small differences, perhaps preferences.
True the copper is the most neutral, but I don't think silver makes it slow, less articulate less dynimic.
Anyways.... can I know what is the serial number on your 4D?
I purchased mine something like 2 months ago or so.
So mine is brand new too. |
