Thanks raul.....the 2nd pivot is certainly an improvement....probably as you say.
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truth be told, I never had any problem with either the 3D with or without the 2nd pivot or the metal VPI 10.5 arm with tracking any record I have. I found the 3D a major improvement to the metal, and the 2nd pivot to be an even bigger improvement. Some have voiced the opinion, that the single pivot arms "feel funny", but once lowered onto a record, the stability problem is eliminated.
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Raul....very few people on these sites are wrong or right.....Does one prefer Mozart to Beethoven? All designs have something that can be pointed to with ridicule. I've had many arms - (lets see if I remember some of them)...Grado Labs, ESL, SME V, Ortofon, Helius, Rega ..and so it goes. They've all resided in systems that have changed as has the sound (my ears as well)....however, I have never been as satisfied with a tonearm as I have been with VPI. Should you want to hear mine, if you are ever in Arizona, let me know we can have a listen and some wine.
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Actually, you’re right the gimbaled arm has virtues that the unipivot doesn’t and v/v. The reason the 2nd pivot attachment to the unipivot was released is because the 2nd pivot combines the advantages and none of the disadvantages to the competing designs....so said Harry.
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I agree that a cartridge must negotiate a very poor road to travel....in Arizona, some of the car roads are also very poor, yet my car suspension system compensates for that leaving a pleasant riding experience. My cartridge also has a suspension system.....I hear the music very well.
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Don - you do not know what you’re talking about. I’m sure you are not a VPI fan, but if you don’t know what truth is, you shouldn’t post to steer subscribers in the wrong direction. Damping fluid in the metal VPI arms can be useful if you want to tune out a wart in your speakers, etc....in truth the damping fluid in a high end system reveals a closing in of the soundstage. Even with the damping fluid, the metal arms wobble.The metal VPI arms are very good, but the 3D’s are exceptional....ranking with the very best, even if they too wobble. If the look of the 3D is not pleasing, you can always glue diamonds to it....if the arm breaks, there is the VPI team that will readily repair/replace the arm. The 2nd pivot on the already excellent 3D that does not wobble,will make you want to re-listen to your records. I am a long time purchaser of VPI. I have a Supersoutmaster/rim drive/SDS/3D/2nd pivot. I even have one of their black VPI polo shirts that Harry sent me after helping me with an issue.
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Raul.... I believe you are correct....that's why the 2nd pivot works so well. ...as to why the unipivots work as well as they do ....if one looks at a bautiful phonograph....even though it is clear and clean, when looking very closely, you'll see that it is made of many dots that all meld as one into that picture. Many listeners will be very happy with a unipivot on their turntable (I was)....but as you said...in finding and eliminating "possibilities" ..looking for the very best that can be done....the 2nd pivot brings us very much closer to the performance. That 2nd pivot increases dynamic range, widens and deepens the stereo image, solidifies the low end, stabilizes the images within the sound field, et al. I'm sure in the future, there will be even more modifications and applied engineering to bring tonearm designs to increased abilities, but for the moment, satisfaction can be found for most people.
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Raul....Interesting that you mention your objection to VPI arm regarding their serious needs for anti-skate. I've listened carefully with and without anti-skate on my metal 10.5 arm, on the 3D with and without the 2nd pivot and in all cases, the sound to my ears is better with a/s removed completely. I've listened a number of times but once I heard the difference, it was clear, I did not want a/s on my arm.
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Don - I know about everything..
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Bill / Moon Very interesting post. I remember owning a Helius arm...very high priced, but a miserable design.. It went back to England 4 or 5 times before I sold it.... it was gimballed and was supposed to be the second coming. I had trouble with my ESL, Zeta, Rega, (gimbal) but never had any trouble with a Grado Labs or 3 different VPI's... (unipivot).
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The 2nd pivot can be used on the metal arms, but may have a problem with some earlier vintage metal arms. Check with VPI and send them a picture and approx. purchase date so they can confirm the proper fit. Note that the 3D arm sounds very much better, and therefore the 2nd pivot will have an even greater advantage.
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..just a suggestion for those setting up the 2nd pivot. Attach the gizmo to the arm, but don’t let the 2nd pivot touch....just unscrew the adjustment until it doesn’t make contact. Use the Fozgometer, and then adjust the meter by very slowly screwing down the adjustment screw. When you get the ideal - only a bit off.... use very little adjustment to perfect the result.
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...and another discovery with the 2nd pivot. This may or may not be true...true in MY system. When releasing the cuing device, if the Azimuth is spot on, the arm will be lowered straight onto the leadin groove. If off, even a bit......the arm veers off course.
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What damping does is to stabilize the arm....the exact result of adding the VPI second pivot.
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Slaw - isn't the goal of a company to make a product better, and bring in additional capital for that effort? Honda is a better product now than it was in 1960, as is Apple, Boeing, et al. People vote as to the success/failure of the innovations with their checkbook....the American way.
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Cole to you slaw.....you're just jealous...
I don't know if this is so...I read it somewhere that VPI doesn't use Baerwald or Stevenson dimensions for their stylus to pivot measurements. I personally use a Mint Protractor (not sure what he uses either) ....I would use the Fieckert gizmo if I were you.
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also....slaw..... I am well acquainted with the ceramic platter. There is one right on my turntable as I write. I compared the ceramic with the regular metal one.....absolutely no difference at all with the sound....but I like the ceramic one because it doesn't show fingerprints at all. It is not in production because it was more expensive to make, but not an upgrade in sound. It really is only a Classic platter with a spray covering....not a completely ceramic platter.
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Folkfreak.....don't freak out. The difference is INTENDED. ...it just depends where you want to put the errors. Matt's answer is ok...just not completely explained.
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Slaw....I can see you jumping in place all red in the face. You seem to simply don't understand why there exists such thing as overhang adjustment. I can explain it to you, but you would probably retain the information if you get it from your research. The arm's error in tracking a record can be placed at the beginning, middle, or end of its traverse through the side.....there are advantages and disadvantages in placing the worse error or average error in the stylus's path. VPI has chosen a different path than Feickert....choose your poison.
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Slaw... re: cole..... I was trying to be cute with your name "Slaw." ...Cole Slaw get it??
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I can't help wonder why there is so much discussion on this. Raul thinks the single pivot is flawed because it is unstable (wiggle)...the 2nd pivot stabilizes the arm and thus corrects the issue. It me it sounds better with the 2nd pivot than without. Done.
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Just another point on the 2nd pivot. Using the Fozgometer...take your time and get it perfect...it can be done with the 2nd pivot...just screw it down or up and it stays. Its almost impossible to do without the 2nd pivot in place. As the Foz needles get closer, just a small adjustment makes a very big difference. My Foz meters are nearly pegged for both left and right. It makes a very big difference in the sound.
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