Read literally, the distributor’s note implies that the company will not service any equipment "purchased on the used market from anyone that is not an authorized Viva dealer." I wonder if they really intend to proscribe that broadly? Say you are in the States and want to buy a used piece of gear from a private seller (or even a non-Viva dealer who received it as a trade-in) -gear that was originally sold by an authorized dealer in the U.S. market. No service or support because the (used) purchase was not made directly from an authorized dealer? Even though the product was originally sold by an authorized dealer within the territory?
I do understand the grey market issues- and those are legitimate concerns both to protect the marketing/distribution system and the integrity of the product (especially if there are regional product differences that may involve legal compliance).
I like the ViVa gear I’ve heard. I doubt that the company intends to foster ill-will among existing owners or prospects. I’m not entirely sure of the facts in the OP’s situation--he says the amps are in Manchester (England?) and wants to upgrade and use them Stateside? (Thus the response from the U.S. distributor addressing a voltage change, among other things?)
If the gear had been purchased from an authorized dealer in one country, and the owner (whether or not the original purchaser) wanted to relocate to another part of the world, the customer ought get support. That would seem to have little direct impact on the grey market unless the customer’s objective was to "flip" the gear- but in that case, why bother with the voltage change? Why not just resell in the "foreign" territory?
My bet--the company might revisit this broad statement of policy to ward off grey market issues without alienating or limiting their customer base. If it is the company’s intention that all resales of equipment have to go back through an authorized dealer, that should be made clear. I had experience with this at one point with a car- I was required to sign a contract that said I wouldn’t "flip" it privately but if I wanted to sell it, must resell it to the authorized dealer--this was to prevent premiums for a then "hot" product that had limited allotment. I didn’t have a problem with that and the time frame was limited to a year after purchase. (Even in the case of cars that are built as "world market," there are compliance issues that vary by country, but that’s a separate matter).
I know that sometimes, posts like this are constructive, because they bring attention to a situation that has put a customer in an untenable situation. Sometimes, it is the communication process- frustration leads to annoyance which leads to unintended outcomes for both parties. My experience with big companies- and ViVa as far as I know is a small company (unless they are owned by a large operation) is that the wheels of bureaucracy are frozen and almost impossible to turn. Let’s hope this situation is clarified for all concerned. |
I think you have to distinguish between grey goods and equipment on the resale market that was originally authorized to be sold in a particular territory or region. Grey goods, as I understand it, are legitimate goods, but only within the territory or region for which they are authorized to be sold. In many cases, rather than using the authorized dealer or distribution network within your country, you can buy from the country of origin or neighboring country at a cheaper price, but that bypasses the distribution and support system the manufacturer has put into place. (Some of the mark up or difference in price is a reflection of the additional cost of that local distribution and service network). In the case of electronics, power supplies may be modified or other changes made to adapt the product for the remote market. The manufacturer typically does not want to have to support that -even if being paid to do so by the end user--since it not only undercuts its distribution system, but puts its brand in jeopardy if unauthorized modifications have been made to the equipment.
I don’t think these are shabby excuses, but reflect legitimate concerns. (PS: I’m not addressing ViVa alone here, but the issue more generally and have no view on ViVa’s service or support, in the U.S. or elsewhere).
In my earlier post upthread (I thought these posts were numbered, but it appears at 09-25-2016 9:57am), I pointed out that the U.S. distributor’s stated position went beyond that, and denies support to "equipment purchased on the used market from anyone that is not an authorized Viva dealer." Read literally, this would exclude support for goods that were authorized for sale in the territory in question, but purchased used from a private seller. |
@larryi - thumbs up.
@unsound - I respectfully disagree- the issue is a consumer issue as well. We seem to want it all- low prices, ready availability and support. What’s that saying? You can only have two out of three: good, cheap and fast? I don’t begrudge a consumer, looking for a bargain, buying out of the distribution chain, but that should be an informed decision, knowing the trade-off is potentially a lack of support. I may not be the typical consumer of hi-fi gear because I want the comfort of knowing that whatever I buy will be supported, and am willing to pay the premium to get it. Support costs money--for the manufacturer and distributor; of course this is passed on to the customer in the form of higher prices. But with that also come certain intangibles, apart from peace of mind--I’ve had unbelievable support from manufacturers and distributors--in many instances way beyond the call of duty-- supplying loaners, direct replacements, and quick turnaround on repairs ,extra spares, discounts and the like. Yes, I "paid" for that upfront rather than bargain hunting, though in some cases, the equipment came into my hands used, through an authorized dealer. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky and I’ll hit a snag at some point--buying gear through authorized channels and getting zero support. But, how can loaners, replacement products and other courtesies (I do regard them as courtesies to the extent that the manufacturer/distributor makes such accommodations beyond a literal reading of the warranty)--be extended without paying for it in some way? As I said, I don’t begrudge the bargain shopper- but as long as it is an informed choice, you take whatever risk you (and your pocketbook) are comfortable with.
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Guys: My main point in the earlier posts here was to distinguish between grey market and 'authorized' for the market goods, not whether it was covered by warranty or whether it was repair or upgrade. I think the question raised--and reiterated by BRF a few posts above--remains. |
Davey- the car market may be a good example. At least it was, back when I was buying exotics. Cars sold in the States have to meet all kinds of regulatory standards-- from crash-worthiness to EPA standards. There were many instances where a very cool model was never brought into the States officially- it could be privately homologated by a certified shop, but I doubt any US dealer would get near it. (Some of these are now antiques, so can get in through other exemptions).
I believe that a lot of major manufacturers of all types of products adhere to these kinds of policies for grey goods, because apart from protecting their territorial distributorships and dealers (which cost more than buying out of network), there are in some instances, material differences in the products themselves, which raise legal compliance/liability issues. The manufacturer will, for very good reasons, want to avoid condoning the sale of such products in a territory where they don’t comply with applicable safety, health or other laws or regulations.
I think you have to consider the many sides to this- as well as the facts of the specific situation before you can reach a conclusion as to whether extending or denying service in a particular instance is fair or reasonable.
If you aren't talking about grey goods, but products originally authorized for sale in the territory, I agree that support should be provided, see my previous postings.
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@michaela : perhaps that is true. I don’t know enough of the facts here since the OP does have a piece of gear that is ex-US. I’ll give you one example. Years ago, I bought a piece of consumer electronics (video) from a dealer in the States and it had problems. The dealer was useless. I contacted the manufacturer- they said, "oh, he’s not an authorized dealer, so we have no obligation." I sent them a copy of a print advertisement from the dealer that appeared in a major electronics magazine (yeah, this was some time ago), claiming that the dealer was authorized to sell the brand. The ad even included the manufacturer’s logo and the words "authorized dealer." I suggested to the manufacturer that they ought do a better job policing this. They agreed, and sent some techs to my house, along with a new unit. But, this doesn’t sound like that situation.
Sometimes, the issue of grey market isn’t always so murky and doesn’t involve any overt misrepresentations (although who knows- dealers can sometimes be a little too slick, right?). However, there are times when a consumer knows that they are purchasing something outside of the authorized system and in that case, I think the consumer bears the risk. For any high priced piece of gear, used, I would probably insist on the serial number and contact the manufacturer to verify its origin and service history before I bought. (I don’t know how much this happens in hi-fi, but I know in the case of other luxuries goods, some have turned out to be stolen!- Not suggesting that is the case here at all, just that you can never be too careful when laying out substantial funds).
Having said all that, please note that the original statement from the US distributor (contained in the original post that started this thread) did strike me as overbroad-- in refusing service for any equipment not bought from an authorized dealer. This would exclude the used market, even if the gear was originally "authorized" to be sold within the territory, i.e, not grey market. See my post above at 09-25-2016 9:57am.
I’m reluctant to paint this with a broad brush-- it really depends on the facts. I don’t believe a consumer who knowingly buys out of market goods can expect or should the support, for the several reasons mentioned in another post of mine above.
But, I’m not the arbiter of this, and your view is certainly as valid as mine. To the extent that there is a cost to be borne, it is usually the consumer that pays it, one way or the other.
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If fracescode’s statement of the manufacturer’s position is accurate, that not only hurts the used market for potential purchasers but limits the market for new product purchasers- the original buyer of the piece new is going to have a harder time getting rid of the piece to a used buyer who can’t get support. That is unfortunate for all concerned. I suppose the original owner could be forced to sell back to an authorized dealer if support is provided in that circumstance, but that’s unduly restrictive.
As long as we aren’t complicating the question with grey market issues,* I’m in agreement with those of you who think this is not a good practice.
*Davey- the OP's situation did raise grey market issues as I read it, but the discussion has embraced grey and non-grey goods. |
