Jeff, i have been asked these questions many times. i agree with many here, there are many perspectives. i am one who has always attempted to try to have state-of-the-art players for both digital and vinyl. recently; i have also pursued state-of-the-art reel to reel. to me one of the fun parts of this hobby is comparing formats.
when i have visitors over we first listen to digital then at some point i put on an Lp of the same music we just heard in digital; i love to watch the look on their faces and the jaws dropping.....then a big smile and a shaking of the heads.
what does it take to get this difference?
the big difference between vinyl and digital is that with vinyl everything matters alot. there is so much more information in those grooves that at almost any level of vinyl changing the right thing will take you further.....and you will likey clearly hear the change. this makes moving up more fun.
in the past i have said that the right tt, arm, cartridge, and phono stage purchased for $10k-$12k new or around $7k used would potentially take you to a performance level where most listeners would easily prefer Lps to digital. as you step that up there would be more 'wow' factor at higher levels of investment. as you travel up the foodchain you have much lower levels of noise; better speed accuracy, and higher levels of refinement.
recently 2 things have changed my perspective on this equation. first; i have a new digtial player, the Playback Designs MPS-5, that likely raises the stakes for vinyl to better digital by another level. for a vinyl rig to exceed this might take another level, maybe $3k to $5k more. second; there has been a bit of discovery what the performance of some vintage direct-drive and rim-drive tt's when combined with top level arms and custom plinths can do. this lowers the investment level of very high level vinyl performance.
so digital is better, but very good vinyl performance has become less expensive to aquire if one goes after these vintage tts.
regarding how much Lps vary; i have 7,000 or 8,000 lps; 90% sound good to great. the others are varible. most of those 'others' were purchased for less than $1 each.
i would add in fairness that many Lps have tics and pops, and the sensitivity to those issues varies from person to person. some people enjoy cleaning records and the little tweaky things one does to get the best results. if one likes the sterile and clean aspect of digital then maybe vinyl is not for you.
a month ago a friend, who owns a record label, used my tt to record some direct-to-disc Lps to make an K2HD recording. he had purchased the rights to these Lps and no master tape exists. he brought 3 pro audio guys and 2 hi-rez recorders; a Pacific Microsonics II (recording at 176/24) and a DXD (recording at 386/32). during this session; we did many test recordings back and forth between the tt and the two state-of-the-art digital recorders.
you would think that these ultimate digital recorders could make a digital recording indistinguishable from the original Lp. if you thought that you would be very wrong.
as good as the digital sounded; the Lp still smoked the hard drive based recordings. digital (at whatever resolution) simply cannot get the whole picture.
the real question is.....is it worth the trouble?
you bet. |
yeah right. 2 different hi-rez professional recording chains were simultaniously mysteriously faulty and the three pro audio guys plus the producer were oblivious to that. and remember; their recorders were getting the same signal source as my amps and speakers......but could not fully reproduce it at playback. any distortion in my tt would (according to your position) also be in the recording. Distortion, S/N and other specifications on the type of high end digital gear used should have made your observations impossible provided the equipment was working properly and operated correctly. i have one question. if you had been there and heard it; checked and rechecked your gear; and then heard it again.....would you then believe it? here is what the pro audio guys said. "i guess i've never been exposed to a really high performance vinyl set-up before.....it really openned my eyes". |
either this is reality..... Frankly, most modern D to A and A to D has a precision of reproduction that is far beyond human hearing. or this is reality... a month ago a friend, who owns a record label, used my tt to record some direct-to-disc Lps to make an K2HD recording. he had purchased the rights to these Lps and no master tape exists. he brought 3 pro audio guys and 2 hi-rez recorders; a Pacific Microsonics II (recording at 176/24) and a DXD (recording at 386/32). during this session; we did many test recordings back and forth between the tt and the two state-of-the-art digital recorders.
you would think that these ultimate digital recorders could make a digital recording indistinguishable from the original Lp. if you thought that you would be very wrong.
as good as the digital sounded; the Lp still smoked the hard drive based recordings. digital (at whatever resolution) simply cannot get the whole picture. the fact is that even at 386khz with a 32 bit word length it is easy to hear the shortcommings of digital's attempt to reproduce music compared to vinyl. just listen. |
Shadorne, your posts are typially well considered and even though we are not agreeing here i don't take your comments as any sort of judgement on my system.
please understand i am very pro digital and typically listen to digtial 60% to 70% of the time. i am as interested in hearing the very best digital player possible as i am the top level analog/vinyl. in fact; i think my current digital player sets a new digital standard. i say 'think' because i have not heard everything out there. let's just say that i know what top level digital performance is. and that, as good as it may be, is really not very close to what top level vinyl can do at this particular point in time.....although it is slowly getting closer.
i've been going down this path for 8 or so years now; since i purchased the Linn CD-12 in 1999 and the Marantz SA-1 in 2000. so i am not just shooting from the hip here. i have 3500 CD's and 800 SACD's and for many of those i have Lp versions.
that recording session i referred to was a very interesting event. it's too bad more digital dogma believers were not present to witness it. those pro audio guys work with those digital tools daily and certainly came to that session with similar notions as yourself. but listening to 8 to 10 hours of tests and more tests and then doing 2 sets of each recording and having 5 people's opinions on each of those events. there was no place to hide from the truth. and that truth is that digital recording is not able to reproduce the magic of vinyl.
OTOH digital is wonderful in it's own right and needs make no apologies. it simply is not quite as 'perfect sound forever' as some might think. |
to echo Dan's comments, i'll be glad to compare any digital hi rez format to the inner grooves on any of my classical Lps.
yes; i've owned world class linear tracker arms and they do give you some benefits. however, the better and best pivoted arms properly set up eliminate any audible inner groove distrotion. i have many reference and test tracks that happen to be in the inner grooves without ever needing to concern myself.
as far as Carmina Burana, i have 4 or 5 pressings of it....and another 3 or 4 digital examples of it. come on over and let's do the comparison. |
i notice a few 9 year old posts from me in this thread. my digital is much, much better now, but what's crazy is so is my vinyl much, much better now.
and better vinyl (even sometimes but not always digitally sourced) is still easily better than the very best digital. but the very best digital is now super good and streaming has opened up so much music that digital is really amazing.
so it's now 'best sound' verses best way to listen. i have top level vinyl, but mostly listen to digital. i follow the music. |
@sdrsdrsdr Yes. 1/4” tape. I’ve never heard any debate from the vinyl crowd on which is more superior, many discussions though. All seem to agree that tape is the best. I don’t know if this is also the same consensus the digital crowd shares too. here’s the rub. i love my tape (observe my system page), and have plenty of great tapes. but as my vinyl has improved over these past few years, more and more times i find that my vinyl equals or even slightly betters the tape reference that i had. it’s not that tape should not be better, more that tape varies so much as to the provenance, quality of transfer, and age at transfer. i have now 20 year old 45 rpm re-issues that were transferred when the master was much younger. now we see these same titles offered on tape that are not as good as my vinyl. OTOH; acquiring those fantastic 20 year old 45 rpm reissues might cost you more than the tape, so a case can be made to own that tape for less. the answer is, like most things, is that ’it depends’. tape is king, but only when it’s optimal. i have been very selective as i’ve acquired tape titles over the years, and my tapes are generally a cut above my vinyl, but i do find lots of exceptions. and this has caused me to slow down my tape buying considerably and be very picky. now when you get into 1/2" tape titles, or 30 ips tape titles, sourced from 1/2" or 30 ips, then it’s easy to be confident that it will be superior. nothing quite like 1/2" tape. if digital people think it can compete with 1/2" tape, i have to laugh, that is just ignorant. |
there are a few labels that disclose a choice of 1/2". and those sometimes disclose the source tape’s details. so you have to dig a little to find this information. the cost of 1/2" is typically 66% to 100% more. it’s not just more expensive tape stock, it’s also setting up the 1/2" machine.
with grey market tapes this is a ’grey’ subject. how do you know the exact source tape? was it 1/2" or 30 ips? again; hard to know.
i have maybe a dozen 1/2" albums i know are 1/2" sourced, then another 10 i don’t really know. a 1/2" dub of a 1/4" tape will sound better than a 1/4" dub.
read Lp jacket covers and many times you will see a 1/2" tape source.
how many legit 1/2" tapes are out there to buy? can’t say, but would guess a few dozen. a separate question would be how great is the music?
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the phrase ’technically superior’ is a misnomer relative to our listening to music. on paper digital recorders do all sorts of magic tricks as far as dynamic range and bandwidth. and data on analog recorders misses the fact that analog recorders record data into the noise floor, whereas digital recorders have hard limits that cannot be really approached. i claim that no digital recordings i’ve heard capture music like 1/2" tape and if you throw 30ips into it the delta is even greater. here is a link to an interview with a well known recording engineer that talks to this issue and it’s real world consequences. scroll down toward the bottom; https://www.stereophile.com/content/hdcd-keith-johnson-pflash-pflaumer-michael-ritter this subject has been beat to death, stomped on and kicked dozens of times. i have the highest level digital playback gear and daily compare the highest rez digital to vinyl and tape. the results are easily heard. |
been there, done that. multiple times, in multiple ways. i have 800-900 needle drops. these are 2xdsd vinyl rips of my vinyl i have on my NAS. play them often. and hundreds of digital tape transfers at various hirez levels i can compare to the vinyl transfers. then there was the recording done in my room back in 2008 where pro audio guys dubbed a direct to disc record off my turntable and tried to get it to sound as good as the source. https://www.audaud.com/jun-fukamachi-at-steinway-take-2-toshiba-emi-direct-discfirst-impression-music/ try as they might, they could not capture the musical nuance of the vinyl on their state of the art digital recorders. i can dub vinyl with my tape deck that get’s it all. or dub my tape to another tape and get it all too. look at my system pages........ https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615
.......and you will see i’m set up to easily do just that any time. |
a 12 year old thread.
we live in the present. |
“Top-notch digital“ is a misnomer since even the most expensive digital players produce serious audible errors. The three most serious errors are external vibration, vibration and flutter of the disc itself whilst spinning and our old friend scattered background laser light. Now, I know a lot of you are probably thinking, “but I thought all modern CD players solved those problems a long time ago, doesn’t reclocking and buffering eliminate those problems?” Better think again, buddy boy. And yes, I know what you’re thinking, “but my system sounds fabulous!” CD? what’s a CD? spinning disc? what’s that have to do with digital audio? that’s so "5 years ago". now it’s PCIe drives. agree on the effect of resonance on circuits though. that is major. |
let me help you out here with some relevant information;
" Per the RIAA: “Revenues from streaming music platforms grew 30% year-over-year to reach $7.4 billion, contributing 75% of total revenues for 2018, and accounting for virtually all the revenue growth for the year.”
"While physical media sales were down 23%, CD sales themselves slipped 34% for the year to $698 million. That’s the first time CD yearly revenue has come in below $1 billion since 1986."
here is what CD has to say.......
"I’M DYING’.
btw; i like 16/44 redbook and no doubt CD’s can sound very very fine. i own 4000 of them, but don't spin any. i’m not knocking it and listen to redbook files often. but it’s not ’Top Notch Digital’ and it’s not relevant to that subject. |
Most people have CD players. that’s not true. less than half have active CD players in their systems. and few are being added. maybe they have an old CD player or transport in storage. for the last 4 years i’ve had an ’old’ Oppo sitting in my closet in case i needed to spin a disc. not had to plug it in. and the heading of the thread is "Vinyl-vs-Top-Notch-Digital". in case you’ve been under a rock the last 5 years, "Top Notch Digital" is not CD’s........and has not been for many years. |
12, t w e l v e, years ago. the Meridian 800 and it's ilk are dead and buried. open your eyes.
and the request was for ’top-notch digital’.
and if the whole wide world was not shut down i would not waste my time with this stuff.
question; who gives a rip (pun intended) about spinning disc CD performance?
answer; someone who has no idea about ’top notch digital’. |
