For kicks last night I decided to do something I had not done before. I recorded my Mo Fi 45 rpm copy of Santana's 1st record to the hard drive then played both back synchronized as close as possible. After matching volume I spend the better part of 30 minutes trying to tell the difference between the two switching by remote from my recliner. There were times when I thought the treble may be a little recessed on the digital side but I could not make up my mind if it was real or not. I probably should have had my wife do the switching. |
audio2design, I think in relation to most systems you are probably right except for the evaluation of very deep bass. Apparently you have not looked at my system. What I have is essentially very large electrostatic headphones except the perspective of the soundstage is correct. Headphones can be a good reference for tonal balance. I have Grado Ref2 headphones. The system sounds just like the headphones from a tonal perspective. I never evaluate music with the headphones and I would think mixing/mastering recordings by headphones would be a big no no. They have special systems set up for this. The perspective of the music is wrong and setting up a proper stage would be more difficult. I greatly prefer the stage I get on my system and the visceral sensations you get with live music. This is all missing on headphones. But, I am no recording engineer so if I am wrong please tell me. I just know what I am looking for in my own system. |
Seventies, I do this every day. My phono stage runs through an ADC into 24/192 digital to digital processor along with all other sources. You can run back and forth between the output of the phono stage and the output of the DAC and you would never know which one you were listening to.
You can check my system out on it's page. Conversion back and forth into and out of 24/192 digital is invisible (inaudible) |
Seventies, Vinyl adds euphoric distortions that digital conversion has no problem capturing. I will even make digital recordings of two cartridges reading the same record for comparison's sake.
If I played a 24/192 digital file of my turntable playing whatever, any experienced audiophile would think he was listening directly to the turntable. |
Cleeds there is additional dynamic compression that takes place during the process of cutting a record. The noise floor of digital is much lower.
As far as accuracy and low distortion is concerned high resolution digital is far superior. This does not mean that it sounds better in all cases.
I was discussing one particular case in direct comparison. Unless you have done the same thing you are making assumptions and in reality have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your latin is also a bit rusty. You can criticize me all you want. Have fun. |
Thank you cleeds. But euphonic would mean "true sound" which it is not.
There are a host of distortions that are inherent in the analog process that are not present in digital. This is easy to demonstrate playing exactly the same master of Dylan's Desire in 24/192 digital download and 45 rpm analog at the same time, in sync so you can switch back and forth between the two. The digital has a wider dynamic range as you would expect and is more detailed. You can hear this particularly in the violin. In spite of this every last person I have done this for prefers the vinyl. The violin's details are rounded over giving a smoother presentation. The music and Dylan's voice are recessed, farther away giving one a sense of the third dimension where as the Digital is up front. Having said all this it is impossible to blind this experiment because the vinyl has occasional tics on the quiet parts that can not be hidden. But I would bet that played apart people would have a harder time deciding on a preference.
Nelson Pass admits adding harmonic distortion to his amps because it makes audiophiles happier. Certainly a preference can be based on different masters but this may not be just a digital to analog comparison. I have all the original Roxy Music Albums and just got the remastered box set. The remasters are so much better that people who never liked Roxy
are now collecting their music (two friends of mine). If you were to compare these new masters in digital to the old vinyl there would be no competition. I have many digital remasters that are superior to the original vinyl. Led Zeppelin One is a good example another would be Bowie's Aladdin Sane. |
There is more to vinyl than just the sound. There is the collection and handling of records. There is no way to duplicate this digitally even if you can duplicate the sound digitally. Those of you who do not think you can have obviously not tried it. Don't believe me. Michael Fremer has commented on this subject numerous times and uses the process for demonstration all the time. Personally, I do not record my records to the hard drive. It takes way to much time and effort. I'm just fine with playing my records the old fashioned way. There is a mystique in the process. Watching the record spin in wonder that such a crude process could sound so good.
Buy the way Cleeds, all vinyl playback systems are sonically colored and euphORic. Reality is sometimes a hard pill tp swallow. |
Seventies, no argument from me except there is something special about the LP. Somehow it blends with the human psyche. I do not think it will disappear so fast. Eventually maybe as supplies of oil dry up.
Cleeds, that is exactly what I mean and my point. Vinyl is like cat nip. We are drawn to it for reasons that go beyond just the sound.. There is something about digital that disturbs the minds of many of us and it is not the sound as that can be excellent. There are several here that have expressed a hatred of digital that is unfounded. Why? What is it about the format that bothers them. They will say that it sounds bad but that is not the reason unless they truly have not been exposed to the better digital sources. All modern music is captured as digital files. I guess if they don't see it or rather hear it directly it does not matter? As long as it finishes up on vinyl? |
That is why those of use who are true audio....connoisseurs drive a manual. |
Atmasphere, what is wrong with digital signal processing assuming it is used correctly? I know it is easy to screw things up, done correctly. |
This is sort of laughable. I have the equipment and use it everyday. Works fine. I would think with the system I have problems or differences would be as obvious as they can get. Of course, depending on the hearing of one person (in this case me) to make an evaluation on anything is dangerous. But I think it is safe to assume that a record and a 24/192 file of that record are close enough in sound quality such that there are not glaring differences and a large percentage of us can't hear the difference. |
I do not think there is any argument that analog signals on magnetic tape deteriorate over time. What I hear most is that high frequencies start to roll off. These can always be EQed up I suppose. Once the music is digitized it is immortal as long as the hard drive isn't destroyed. My understanding is that most music has now been digitized in computer libraries and as long as there are sufficient back-ups there is no better way to warehouse it at this time. Does it matter if the path to your ears is all analog or all digital or a mix of the two? If it is good music and it sounds good? Well Scarlet, frankly, I could not give a....... |
Atmasphere, it is my understanding that most of the old tapes have been digitized. Correct me if I am wrong but digital storage is certainly more robust. Once in numbers that "sleepiness" can be corrected with very modest EQ as well as doing neat stuff like getting rid of the tape hiss.
I am totally unfamiliar with DSP as might be used in the recording studio.
My experience is in using it on the reproduction side for correction and bass management. Given the variables involved in speakers, subwoofers and rooms the advantages are significant on this end. IMHO it is always an advantage to hear and know what "flat" sounds like before modifying things to your liking. It is also a great learning experience hearing what different modifications do to the sound. |
Interesting Atmasphere. I do have some Hi Res digital files that sound better than the original album. Led Zepplin One comes to mind. But, this may be due to better mastering.
What is wrong with electricity? If it were not for electricity we would not be having this conversation.
I think you lightly dismiss digital storage. With digital storage backups are always a necessity. A record is more likely to be destroyed in a fire than a hard drive and it's backup assuming the backup is kept in a different location. I backup my hard drive every three to four months. Once in numbers there is no way for the quality of the sound to deteriorate in any way. It remains pristine and noise free without any compression over time. |
Atmasphere! I have two original copies of It's a Beautiful Day! I loved it so much I bought another copy worried I would play the one to death.
Orpheus, you need to check out Channel D's website. I use their Pure Vinyl program which will library and store records on Apple computers.
It will even supply digital RIAA EQ but you have to have a phono stage with a flat output. I only use it for comparison's sake. As cleed opines recording albums in real time is a PITA. If I'm feeling lazy I just load up a digital playlist and let the computer go at it. I have just as many albums on the hard drive if not more. Playing vinyl I prefer it right off the diamond.
I have heard many fine remasters of old stuff. As a matter of fact right now I am listening to a remaster of Seven Steps to Heaven. Granted I do not have an original to compare it to. Ignorance is bliss. If the music is OK, I'm OK. |
@orpheus10 As I have said, recording albums is tedious work. I like playing records. It is tradition, I have thousands of them, I like it.
I have thousands of files on the hard drive. There is always something I want to hear in either format so I do not have to spend a lifetime recording records. If you only had a few records and a few files it might make sense. For me, not. |
@atmasphere,load up Pure Vinyl on a Mac laptop and record all your demo songs as a playlist in 24/192 AIFF. Until you can verify that very few if any can tell the difference between the two, continue to carry both systems. Once you can honestly face anyone and tell them they can't hear the difference you can ditch the analog demo gear and keep those special LPs where they belong, at home under lock and key.
Now you have another problem. Anybody buying a tube amp is going to prefer analog. So, now you have to design an output transformerless solid state amp. If Mcintosh can do one with transformers it should be a walk in the park. |
I think that was one gummy to many. |
