geoffkait,
Stay polite. And stop whining.
Stay polite. And stop whining.
Vinyl / High qual analog tape / High-res digital -- One of these is not like the other
One common theme I read on forums here and elsewhere is the view by many that there is a pecking order in quality:
Top - High Quality Analog TapeNext - VinylBottom - Digital
I will go out on a limb and say that most, probably approaching almost all those making the claim have never heard a really good analog tape machine and high resolution digital side by side, and have certainly never heard what comes out the other end when it goes to vinyl, i.e. heard the tape/file that went to the cutter, then compared that to the resultant record?
High quality analog tape and high quality digital sound very similar. Add a bit of hiss (noise) to digital, and it would be very difficult to tell which is which. It is not digital, especially high resolution digital that is the outlier, it is vinyl. It is different from the other two. Perhaps if more people actually experienced this, they would have a different approach to analog/vinyl?
This post has nothing to do with personal taste. If you prefer vinyl, then stick with it and enjoy it. There are reasons why the analog processing that occurs in the vinyl "process" can result in a sound that pleases someone. However, knowledge is good, and if you are set in your ways, you may be preventing the next leap.
Top - High Quality Analog TapeNext - VinylBottom - Digital
I will go out on a limb and say that most, probably approaching almost all those making the claim have never heard a really good analog tape machine and high resolution digital side by side, and have certainly never heard what comes out the other end when it goes to vinyl, i.e. heard the tape/file that went to the cutter, then compared that to the resultant record?
High quality analog tape and high quality digital sound very similar. Add a bit of hiss (noise) to digital, and it would be very difficult to tell which is which. It is not digital, especially high resolution digital that is the outlier, it is vinyl. It is different from the other two. Perhaps if more people actually experienced this, they would have a different approach to analog/vinyl?
This post has nothing to do with personal taste. If you prefer vinyl, then stick with it and enjoy it. There are reasons why the analog processing that occurs in the vinyl "process" can result in a sound that pleases someone. However, knowledge is good, and if you are set in your ways, you may be preventing the next leap.
Showing 42 responses by glupson
geoffkait, You should have learned by now that honorable retreat is better than dishonorable defeat. You need to know when to stop. For example, roberttdid did make a very clear mistake, got "caught", acknowledged it was a mistake and that he was incorrect, and saved his face. He did not claim it was a Nigerian hacker who got into his account and falsely wrote whatever there was. Trying to ridicule others while you are obviously making the facts up is finally a joke you have not been looking for. It is ok, you can use my lines any time you want, but stay polite. By the way, I was serious about that money you should be getting back from your school. It was not even a joke. |
geoffkait, Well, now when you added that part about small fee and other non-sense, you should be ashamed to have no jokes of your own and steal others’. You do grab a number of my ideas and present them as yours, which would be fine if you did not poach them and then insult me. Get yourself your own jokes, like others do. It is sad to watch you steal and pretend it was yours. Shame on you. I know you are envious, but have some face. |
geoffkait, "...go back to whatever backwater school you went to and demand your money back." It is ok, you can continue using it. Just, please, every now and then mention who the credit for such a witty remark goes to... glupson 09-12-2018 10:13am |
I was considering ordering a CD together with LP, just for the fun of comparing them on my, admittedly, lowish-level equipment.
I have a few of the K2 CDs and I cannot say I find them strikingly better than regular ones. |
djones51, I bought orange vinyl and when I sent that link to mikelavigne before my purchase he said it was the same record that he has (number, I guess). He did not comment on the color, though. In any case, the orange one sounds just fine to me, but do not tell geoffkait. He will recommend you paint it green. At the same time, I do recommend you play it in clockwise fashion. It is, in fact, directional. |
"I think I will order it as well, even to provide a common reference for discussions."Guys, do not blame me later if it is not what you expect. I am not claiming it is superior in any way to anything else. I do claim it seems like a good recording to me. On the other hand, it is recent, it is purely analog, and it seems that they did try to make it as good as it gets at this point. So, maybe it is worth being an analog reference. |
For whatever it is worth, I followed mikelavigne's recommendation and bought Ferit Odom's Dameronia with Strings LP. My system, especially turntable, is very limited but I do have to admit that this LP sounds "good". I will not claim it has this or that, loudness wars, natural, accurate, and whatever else is argued here, but, if you like that kind of music, I would recommend you try it. There is also a CD version of it. I think it comes from same analog tapes, but it exists. |
"...maybe @geoffkait is actually a BOT."No way. Newer artificial intelligence protocols are way more sophisticated than that. |
That Telarc 1812 was famous for its sound. Cannons and all of that. At the same time, I heard that performance itself was not that great. For some reason, I have never heard it. I also think there were two recordings of 1812 on Telarc. One "original" which became famous and then when digital came about one in digital that was to be more impressive except that the report I read preferred the original one. I forgot why. Maybe even snobbery. Did I mix something up? I am writing from memory. All in all, is it worth buying Telarc 1812 and which one? |
mikelavigne, Is the record you linked above the same as this... https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/125556?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpZn49saZ6gIVB4_ICh0EeQRZEAYYASABEgJjyvD_... I know it is the same album, but I wonder if you know anything about pressings. The one on Discogs is "limited to 1000" and this one does not mention anything. Significant? Insignificant? Thanks in advance. |
"Everyone seems to know what a system sounds like just by the photos. Interesting."Who is "everyone"? Nobody here claimed such knowledge. mikelavigne did say how his system sounds, but that is not based on pictures only. I said I would be willing to bet it is good, mahgister expects it to be really good, roberttdid found a link where someone did not think it is as good. |
"Even if not all people like mikelavigne system..."I'd gamble and bet it is not a bad one. "...most system dont have the resolving power to be a fair judge,"I feel that "cheaper" systems may actually reveal the differences more than ultra-expensive (and consequently not crappier) ones can. $300 turntable vs. $300 CD player difference may be more pronounced than $100 000 CD (combination of all those clocks etc.) player vs. $100 000 turntable. I have never heard that kind of turntable, but I have heard cheap ones. CD players seem better to me. |
geoffkait, "Yes, I know what you’re thinking: what about this? What about that?"Wrong again. I was thinking how Michael Green and you are very similar in your unrelenting convictions. By the way, asking what about this or that is how the world progressed. Well, there has to be balance in the Universe. Me for exploration and learning, you for solidified three topics. Cavemen unite! Now, to be fair, you do learn. If that is what copying my ideas and words could be called. If you could only do it sooner than a month after I post it, you would earn straight Cs. |
kren0006, I guess it is acceptable to metion experience/thoughts about SACD vs. CD here. No tape, though. At the first listen, SACDs may sound strikingly "better". There simply feels there is "more of everything". I am not sure if that is because of mastering (or whatever other process may be involved in preparing material for SACD) or because of the medium itself. I will never know, but to me SACDs almost always sound like "more" than their regular CD counterpart. Those that are not that impressive, at least do not sound duller than a CD. Basically, if there is an option, I always buy a SACD and do not regret it. Anyone I presented with music at home, seemed impressed by SACDs. That was an easy part. However, when comparing SACD and CD layers of the same SACD, on the same machine, it gets a little more slippery. I convinced myself that it is always worth choosing SACD layer, but I am not sure I would be able to discern the difference every time, if pressed to. That is why I am suspecting the processing before stamping may be as important as the medium itself, if not even more important. I assume, and have no knowledge of it, that preparing for SACD may make the engineer assume different expectations from customers and adjust the sound to them. The most complicated part may be deciding if all those SACDs are, in fact, "better". I seem to like them more, but I cannot say that they are "more natural". They may be, but it is not that easy to claim for sure. Not even for classical music, although that is where I think they are definitely worth giving a shot. If I were you and wanted to experiment, I would buy a SACD machine (basic ones can be really cheap), a few hybrid SACDs, and check the format out. If I liked it, I might buy a few more, but building the SACD library at this point is questionable endeavor for someone already familiar with streaming. There are plenty of DSF downloads out there and your DAC may be all you need. I have had a very limited experience with Tidal (in audio stores), but from what I have heard selection and sound quality would not make me consider it at all. I think CDs, SACDs, or better downloads would be much better. Again, not much experience. Here is just an example. It may be frowned upon as "not audiophile-worthy", but you can get some idea and it would not set you back by much... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sony-SCD-CE595-5-Disc-CD-Changer-Working/114259185648?hash=item1a9a... |
kren0006, "...whether to get a regular CD transport to run thru dac or a full sacd player."I would buy SACD player. You could always play CDs through an external DAC, if wanted. There are a few more ways. You could put your SACDs into a hard drive and not even need a SACD player. However, it would be a little itchy to have those discs laying around with nothing to play them on. |
"Most of Springsteen - Nebraska was done on a cassette TEAC portastudio.... give it a listen, it has some jump factor spots..."I recently bought Nebraska, ahem, LP. 2014 issue. I will not claim it is realistic, or not, but it is eerily good. First side better than the second one, for whatever reason. I would recommend it to anyone. Way more pleasant to listen to than an old CD or relatively recently remastered CD. I am not saying vinyl is better format, I am just saying this particular one is more pleasing. |
Nothing to do with this thread, but following mikelavigne's link about his amplifiers brought me to someone's comment... "The build quality looks incredible, but if there was an award for tackiest gaming PC, these would win it." What a comparison. https://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-468-monoblock-power-amplifier-specifications (I do not think they are ugly although I have never seen them in person. I doubt they do not sound better than great.) |
"where digital is better, is in the way it works for my life. it fits."All the theory aside, this is the point in 2020. mahgister also makes a good point. If you elevate your system to mikelavigne's level (pricewise and, hard to not believe, qualitywise), the view may be different. Regardless of which format you seem to prefer, if you did not compare it, you would be fine. |