vintage turntables?

Here is a good source of info and a good review back at the peak of the era:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/MISCELLANEOUS/SS1980TT/SS1980TT.html

Excellent history along with photos and ads.

Not at all, that was my bad, I don't mean to blanket the market like that. I am certain there are tables out there that are well suited and justified their asking prices. I still have my own personal short list. But I have to qualify that my dream turntables are by no means anywhere near prices above 5 digits.

I am just taken by how much good sound you can actually get at these small prices in comparison. I then can only reflect back upon my own experience.

I bought a new SOTA Cosmos mk3, had it upgraded to a mk4. It still couldn't hold a steady pitch compared to Technics SL1210MG5 (a current turntable in production) for 1/10 the price.

My advise is to enter the 'high end turntable market' with caution. You can easily spend a lot of $$$ and get nothing in return in terms of turntable performance.

I have invested around $1400 with various modifications from KAB and others on my new Technics SL1210M5G and I'm in a place that is untouchable by a SOTA.

I agree, the high end turntable market is dominated by visual appeal as one of the high priorities. Call me silly, but I've learned that if you can't spin the record consistently at a stable pitch, all other things are bogus.

I started out with a stock Technics SL1210MG5 and have upgraded the footers, record mat and power supply so far. Very happy with the results. But I'm not done yet. It's been quite an educational journey so far.

I agree, perhaps my SOTA experience is unique.

With that said, I started down the path of going for 'high end' turntables - SOTA being my first. After 3 years of a 'sad story' I cut my losses and sold the table. After spending around $7500 on the SOTA, I started to look around. The prices go up really fast, $14k, $20k, etc etc. I asked myself, does good sound from records really cost this much?

So why not do some exploratory work and start out at the bottom with a popular turntable that has ready made modifications available? The Technics was the candidate for me. Looks have no meaning to me when the lights are out and the system is playing and sounding good.

This hobby has a lot of 'extreme engineering' that goes into products, and their prices reflect it. My next turntable purchase I want to have a solid understanding of where the engineering goes and what kinds of audible benefits those efforts have on sound. So for me, this exploration with the Technics turntable is and education.

But to be honest, the thought of spending $$$ on a 'high end' turntable is starting to loose it's appeal. The Technics is giving me quite a bit of enjoyment, and to think I've only spent a fraction of what some spend on just a cartridge.

It's all relevant, if you have the $$$ to throw around in the 'high end turntable' arena, that's great. I started down that path and got a whopping wake up call with the little $$$ I have into this 'direct drive experiment'.

Pcoppola, I agree with you the stock Technics is pretty bad out of the box. But the KAB power supply addresses the noise you're talking about. That modification should be done before any serious evaluation of the table is done. That $225 upgrade allows the Technics' table to show what it is capable of.

Another thing I would like to add to my SOTA experience is the mk4 upgrade. A $900 cost with no clear results or clear definition of what that upgrade entailed. Only here say on this site. The receipt I got was a simple line item:

Cosmos Series IV Upgrade

Bam, $900 gone, and I couldn't hear any audible change. I've been told (on this site) that the mk4 upgrade consists of a motor mount change/upgrade. Wow, for $900, there must have been quite a bit of engineering that went into that motor mount.

Once again, A Fool And His Money.

Now that I've done some modifications on the Technics, I can definitely understand how critical it is to keep vibrations away from the turntable. As far as the stock Technics is concerned, it is very noisy due to the transformer that is used (and mounted) in the turntable. Adding the KAB external power supply changes the Technics to an entirely different table all together.

Consider this, that KAB power supply is a $250 upgrade. I think more engineering effort goes into designing a power supply than a motor mount. The SOTA mk4 upgrade is a $900 upgrade. Once again, I have to ask exactly where did that money go to justify that amount? Makes no sense, unless you concede that you are in the 'high end turntable' market and have a lot of money to spend.

I think there most certainly are expensive turntables out there that do justify their cost (I have yet to actually hear one) but consider the history of records. This is an area that is not new and has seen many decades of improvements and change. There is nothing revolutionary since the 70s for turntable technology. Only new materials, and manufacturing techniques.

Where do these new 'high end turntables' justify their prices? I guess you could think of the 'high end turntable' market as an art, that would explain why you should leave your objectivity and cost consciousness at the door.

Raul,

I like that site, it puts things back into perspective. The article I thought was quite refreshing to read and analyze, but I do agree with you they should have kept all things equal as best as they could have.

I've been curious about the EMT 930, but you like the SP-10 just as much? Very interesting. Did you own an EMT at any time?

I'm wondering what to do with my Graham Phatom arm now, what do you think about getting an arm pod to mount it next to a 12xx?

best,
James

Chuck,

You bet. Here is another good site:

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/rc1.html

best,
James

Raul,

Do you have any thoughts to a London Decca cartridge on the Phantom? I have the Ortofon 2M Black on the way. This will be my first MM.

thanks,
James

Macrojack, talk about coming full circle, my very first turntable in 1982 was a Technics SL-5 linear tracking turntable. At the time, I was only 13 years old reading Stereo Magazine. That turntable lasted me through 2 systems, the first full Technics system - tape deck (with dBx), receiver and speakers. I was then able to upgrade to a Yamaha integrated amp (huge step up) and a pair of JBL 4412 studio monitors. That saw me to college. Some where along the way, I moved out of vinyl and into CDs where I saw my hifi system dwindle away into nothingness through many years until I came across the Zanden dac.

You and Pryso are correct about the current state of turntables. I would like to add that when these large Japanese companies pulled out of the turntable market, the barrier to entry was lifted - the real competition left - and thus real competition dissolved.

Maybe that is changing now, as there are some new direct drive tables entering the market. I am sure there are some excellent belt driven turntables too. I'm sure the engineering that went into them are tremendous.

But what would happen if a Pioneer or a Technics decided to enter in the high end market again? Where do you think their price points would come in?