Vibration Issues / Turntable Decisions


Currently have a Thorens TB-150 which is upgraded to about the fullest extent (Cardas Wiring, New Walnut Plinth, MusicHall Cruise Control 2.0, Rega RB220 Arm, Ortofon 2M Bronze). With that being said, my table is plagued with skips if you all but tip-toe in the room. One of those things that just gets on my nerves. So I have been looking around for a mass-loaded TT.

Is changing to a ClearAudio Performance or MusicHall 9.3 really going to make a different in the skipping?
Any feedback on the Goldring Eroica LX Cart?
Are there any tables to be looking at?

Thanks!

-Ron
60d17028 eb09 47f8 bc14 c4f37859f38bhifiron
Sounds more like an issue with the room and the stand you have the table on than with the table. Is a wall mount out of the option?
Wall mount is an option, but ideal because I have molding that runs around the room at the ideal height so the TT would be quick high and look out of place.

Currently it is sitting on a Marble topped console, but the issue is the room is over a crawl space on wood floors, so shockwaves from walking are quite pronounced and travel well.
You could try isolating the table on a sub shelf on something like these https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tweaks-townshend-audio-seismic-isolation-pods-isolation-feet-2017-... 

i also suspect the marble surface is making the problem worse
The cartridge is not the problem, it is your suspended floors and the spring design of your turntable. Your remedy is a turntable wall shelf like the one below. I use one and it eliminates all foot fall problems. There are several brands and price points available the link below is just an example.

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649225190-target-wall-mount-shelf-for-large-turntables-or-equipme...

Do not get rid of your 150, as you have it modded, will be hard to beat.

If you can absolutely not use a wall mount, you could also try securing the backside of your stand against the wall by wedging a piece of wood between it and the wall. By doing so it provides a secondary plane for stabilizing the stand and will eliminate 99 percent of the floor wobble. If that works you can then make an adjustable one using a piece of wood, a large bolt and a nut. The cost would be just a few dollars. You would use any shelf side facing the wall on the stand as the anchor point. The higher up the better, but I have had success using lower shelfs, too.
Secure your supporting table to the wall behind using a turnbuckle, a piece of wood of appropriate size, etc. This has cured many of these kinds of problems.  When this is corrected your next step would be an Ortofon Black.
Here is my setup. As you can see the wall-self would look quite odd. I will try securing the cabinet to the back wall, good idea! The TD-150 does go nicely with the Decware equipment, I would like to keep it.

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/GMBMhCy.png
Out of curiosity, would there be any benefit to moving to an MC cart or is a 2M Black going to be a great spot to hover around? The MMF 9.3 came with the Eroica LX MC, which was appealing, but of course that also implies a $500-1200 Step-Up Transformer pushing the total upgrade cost a bit up there.
hifiron,
What are those unusual speakers?They look really good.Good luck with your vibration issue.

@roxy54  Thanks! They are Decware HR-1 radials, absolutely amazing! I'll try some bracing this weekend and report back on my status.
@hifiron - A few of different approaches....

1. stiffen the floor - probbly the easiest and most effective

You mentioned the room is over a crawl space
- go under the floor and screw a few 2 x 6’s under the unit (overlapping it by a couple of joists
- simply place the 2 x 6 flat against the joist and put a couple of 3" screws into every joist it crosses
- you will be very surprised at how much difference it will make

2. Magnetic Isolation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F7odDKL4Y

3. There are a variety of Herbies isolation devices that might work
http://herbiesaudiolab.net/special.htm

4. Employ a cushion isolation device under the TT.

They can be purchased online
https://www.amazon.ca/Auralex-SubDude-II-Subwoofer-Acoustic-Isolation/dp/B00DI5AXNI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_2...

OR are simple to DIY...
- Build a box similar in size to TT base about 1.5 inches high
- place a bicycle inner tube insude
- place a piece of MDF on the inner tube (cut to about 1/4" smaller than the inside dimension of the box
- place a piece of granite on top of the MDF

The granite will stabilize the TT
- the inner tube will absorb the vibration from the floor and will not move the granite
- Drawback: you have to pump it up now and again

You could probably use the Herbies Medicine Ball in place of the inner tube - no drawback!

You really need to address the root cause - buying a different TT or cartridge will not do the trick

Hope that helps


I agree with Willy, support the floor from underneath first . That is your problem. Stop the amount of deflection there . Except I would support it across the width just in front of where the equipment is and support that on either end right to ground . I’m betting when no one walks on the floor and your in your seat listening your happy with playback so it isn't your table and wall mounts are not always the ideal solution. If the floor has that much deflection and the wall isn't an outside wall without a door in it chances are with a floor that bouncy it will only reduce , not remove the problem completely. 
Hello Ron,

A few questions on the rack build since that is the obvious issue causing the footfall.

How is the rack touching the flooring and are there any types of footers between the frame bottom and floor?

Is the rack inside the framework hollow or is there any type of bracing?

Is the frame 'X' braced? 

Based on these answers, there could be a solution that will also improve performance of the system entirety.

Robert
Star Sound


I would also check the tracking force, just in case.


Ditch the stand. Stands and racks are bad news.

Ditch the stand. Stands and racks are bad news.

You know Geoff, I don't mean to be unkind, but I realize now that you are one of those people (there are others) whose job it is to take a position whether it makes sense or not. I guess I would call it being contrary.

You of all people, who espouses and even sells different gadgets for isolating/decoupling now makes a blanket comment that stands and racks are bad news. I think that most people who have used one have heard their benefits. I suppose you just enjoy arguing about nonsense.

There are other threads about this very issue you may want to research.

The least expensive and maybe most effective option would be to use springs / www.grainger.com rated for your TT’s weight. Using springs will require the need to adjust your TT for level.

So a couple of MDF boards with some sort of footer or shims between the bottom board and your current console that allows for level adjustment, the springs between the two boards and your TT on top.

This will be very beneficial without messing up your walls, all the while, giving you a taste of the benefits of what good isolation can accomplish for the future.

Your other components would benefit from this as well.
Don't use springs...that would negate the suspension system of the Thorens.   Fixing the floor from below might be helpful..but a huge pain to do properly.  Fix the cabinet to the wall....tight.  Use one turnbuckle into the wall, or stick a piece of appropriate size wood between the wall and the cabinet.  Cardas blocks under the turntable will help the sound, but fix the footfalls first.
The trouble with turntable springs is their resonant frequency isn’t low enough to do any good in certain situations. Such as this one. 🙄 My advice - remove the springs and get yourself some real springs.
Roxy, obviously whatever stand or rack the guy has isn’t working. Of course I’m not saying all racks and stands are terrible, just most of them. Follow?
hifiron,

Fixing your console to your wall does what, exactly? Your wall is connected to your floor, right? This is the entire issue. ( This would be a (minor) improvement that would be a cause of considerable amount of time/unnecessary work and destruction to your wall).

I’d be glad to discuss with you further on a PM if you’d like. I have similar issues and have found ways to achieve excellent results.

Good luck.
"Don’t use springs, that would negate the suspension system of the Thorens."

I would just add this...

If the Thoren’s suspension was working properly, you’d have little to no problem now? Why would another layer of (effective) isolation be a bad thing? Would the author of the above quote say the same thing if you had a Minus K under your TT now?

To borrow a often read quote from geoffkait... "Hell-ooo!"
Maybe all of us should get Herzan active isolation platform, as was suggested in another thread, and call it a day. It's $10k, so what? Save on coffee, beer and lunches, will be healthier too.
Hang a shelf from the ceiling via bungee cords. Would look like hell, but are you an audiophile or not? ;-)

Geoff,

No, I don't "follow". You're still saying that most racks and stands are "terrible", and that is a silly comment.

@audiopoint the rack is open to store my vinyl records in it, no bracing. :-\

@bdp24 lol, ultimately a new listening room needs to built in the house for anything super crazy, this is the first room when you walk in the house. Aesthetics are somewhat important ;-)

I'll take a look at some options. I was also toying with the ideal of bringing home a MMF 7.3 or ClearAudio Concept from my local dealer to see if a non-suspended table works more favorably.

Always good to do a T test.
Roxy
Geoff,

No, I don't "follow". You're still saying that most racks and stands are "terrible", and that is a silly comment.

OK. let's try a different approach. Most racks and stands amplify structureborne vibration. Which is terrible. That's why moving electronics from the rack or stand and placing them directly on the floor usually results in better sound. Even without any isolation. Now do you follow?

🏃.  🏃

Two different spring systems can be used effectively only if their respective resonant frequencies are separated in frequency by a sufficient spacing. Otherwise the two spring systems will interfere. It would be like a car traveling down the road with two sets of identical springs for each wheel. It would be a very bumpy ride. LIGO isolation included dual layer heavy mass-on-spring systems. So there's no doubt this technique works or why.
I never tried a really good rack. Placing equipment on a maple block with cones under it on the floor does give me a better sound. Any piece of equipment. Well, I can't keep everything on the floor because of practical considerations but my turntable is permanently on the floor.
hifiron,

Trying the inexpensive options I laid out would let you experience how this option can work within the system you now have. This sort of end user experience is invaluable. Changing to a completely different TT/suspension does not give you any real answers going forward within your current framework.

If you bring home a different TT, not only do you have a totally new/unfamiliar design to try and interpret but you lose whatever synergy you had to start with. How does this help?

Good luck.

Geoff,

That is completely opposite to my experience, and if it wasn't different from the experience of many others, there would be many rack manufacturers out of business.

Viva la difference! 😀

I use an isolation platform I made from a maple butcher block and 4 springs. I don’t have footfall issues, but it improved my sound.. however: I don’t recommend a spring isolated platform, whether it’s air or coil springs, as your turntable already has springs. Doubling springs are not a good idea, as it has been reported that it messes with the sound in a bad way. I think affixing the back of your rack to the wall and going into the crawlspace and reinforcing under your rack are your best first bets.
Wall rack all the way. I built a custom one that extends farther out into room, cut the back of my stereo cabinet out and the turntable looks like it is on a cabinet shelf but it is actually just above it. See my system page for a picture. 
hifiron, 
     I had a similar problem in one house I owned.  We added 2 ft. of space to the depth of the room when building and the floor became a semi-trampoline.  The room was now 20' wide and 16" deep.  The joists ran from front to back so they were 16' long X 7 1/4" in height.  The Maplenoll Ariadne TT at 70 lbs. had trouble tracking most records if someone was moving in the room.  

     The solution proved to be building a beam by connecting three 2" X 12" boards together.  If they are not long enough to span the distance under the joists, put the spliced beams at different locations so the strength is maintained.  Glue and nail the boards together at several locations both top and bottom.  Use 6" X 6" posts to support the beam.  Since you are over a crawl space and I was over a cement floor of the basement, you will need to make solid footers to support the posts and thus, the beams.  The footers are going to need to go below the frost line if you live more north in the U.S.  That means you would need at least 3 footers 12" in diameter and 42" deep.  Use heavy duty 6 X 6 hangers anchored in the footers with a 1/2" J-bolt.  Where the beam touches the joists, anchor this location with hurricane straps from the joist to the beam every few joists so there is no chance for it to slip.  If you run this beam down the middle of the support joists, the bouncy floor problem should be a moot point.  

     Once I did this, my Maplenoll tracked beautifully with even a 250 lb. buffalo like myself walking or mildly jumping.  Yes, it's a lot of work.  Yes, you will have to buy some materials--about $125.00 worth I would guess.  But the other solutions might be better than before or they might not--this one will work!  You'll be able to use the TT you like the best, too.

     Try a wall mount or a stand/rack.  See what you like better.  By the way, I build strong decks for people I know sometimes and the name I use is Gibraltar.  You can jump on my railings and still be safe.

     And Geoffkait, there are a few racks where the sound is vastly improved over just about any other method of supporting your equipment--Sistrum racks, for instance.  Tremendous improvement in sound with no drawbacks.  Drains those vibrations quickly to the floor, don't damp them.

The sound becomes much more live and real sounding.  It even allowed me to take all 4 corner bass traps out of my room--you couldn't tell the difference in or out anymore.









   
I already acknowledged some racks and stands are not too bad. And I never mentioned anything about damping. I trust you aren't confusing isolation with damping.
I said decoupling, not damping.
Fixing the deflection in the floor from underneath is not that difficult, its the choice that requires a bit more effort in a shorter time span physically ,but it is THE only choice that  removes the problem.
All others are band aids that somewhat work at varying degrees , and at differing degrees should you change the table or the rack.
A solid foundation will always give better results and cost less and take less time to do where access is available,  than the hours of work it takes to earn to save for an inflated , retail band aid to solve an easily solvable problem, not solved at all but just masked with band aids.
No brainer for me, a Saturday morning and its over, free to have any table, rack or speaker, stand mount or not with greater choice on design and function and cost.
Yep, 100% right on. Going to take some time this weekend and investigate some options under the crawl. I only have 2' of working space between the bottom of the floor joists and the earth below.

Stay tuned!

roxy54
I said decoupling not damping.

I was responding to the poster previous to my comment. I am pro decoupling and pro draining and to a lesser extent pro damping. In combination, not separately.

hifiron,

My crawl space has less than 2'. I ended up using some 4x4s and some 20 ton bottle jacks to support the floor joists.
When I was a postdoc at U. Oregon I was introduced to atomic force microscopy, a technology that uses a stylus in the sub-micron tip size range to physically scan and touch-tap to map and image the topography of biomolecules such as DNA, proteins and other structures on a solid support. The resulting images showed hi rez, three dimensionality of biologically relevant tertiary structures. An example was propogation of RNA polymerase II on a DNA template in solution. As you can imagine, any vibration needed to be removed from the microscope and detection system in order to gain maximum resolution. The solution was to suspend these microscopes not with mass loaded heavy laser tables, but with bungee cords from the ceiling.

I don’t see why the same physical principles couldn’t apply to turntables.
Since I don’t understand one word you just said, I’m afraid to disagree!

I just wonder how you’d describe a listening experience??

Hanging the microscopes from the ceiling with bungee cords, was already mentioned. The problem is asthetics!
The same principles do apply to turntables. The same principles also apply to amplifiers, preamplifiers, CD players and speakers. Bungee cords is an excellent example of mass-on-spring physics, upon which almost all audiophile isolation devices are based. Mass on spring acts as a mechanical low pass filter. Bungee cords operate the same way as steel springs and air springs, air bladders. Many audiophile isolation devices such as Vibraplane and Minus K come to us directly from atomic microscopy and from the mother of all isolation companies, Newport Corporation. Minus K in its first incarnation - or would that be carnation? - was Newport's Sub Hertz Platform.

The problem with your turntable is not the up/down movement of the table, but the rocking left/right.  If you try the fixing to the wall as I described above, I am confident you will be happy with the results.  If you aren't remove the wood, if you used the turnbuckle, plaster the wall and move on to solve the problem in another way.  My suggestion has many times worked for those with your issue.
Why not just remodel the whole house?
I’d opine it’s a little more complicated. The resonant frequencies of tonearm, cartridge and platter which are circa 10-12 Hz means they’re liable to be affected by seismic I.e., low frequency vibrations including, but certainly not limited to, those produced by footfall, subways, traffic, and Earth crust motion. In addition, this seismic vibration is in six (count em!) directions, including horizontal plane and vertical and a bunch of rotational directions. Therefore, the walls are moving too. The whole house is moving in all 6 directions! You can run but you can’t hide. Everything is relative so for trampoline floors the wall might very well be better than the floor. But there’s really no substitute for real vibration isolation, i.e., decoupling.

Here are the facts:

The Op initially said the wall mount was ("out of consideration").

Based upon his use of an antiquated console, (which I presumed to be of importance) most here seem to want him to remodel it and affix to the wall. I can only assume his wall is out of consideration as far as hanging stuff on it?

These "initial words" by the OP and the fact that most want to hang onto their money led me to my recommendations.

His set-up is  probably the worst possible scenario. Not only does he have the worst possible scenario for room construction but he has his TT set up in the worst location... right behind a speaker, and then right between the two speakers.

He initially said he was looking for a mass loaded TT.

The main question is, why am I still posting here?



just saw the OP posting about his belt slippage.

Have we’ve been had!

Last time I'll try to help.......
@slaw I think you may find going for a walk may be a good idea. No need to get so mad! OP said he can’t use a TT shelf because of the chair rail molding, which is obvious in the pic. That means he’s still able to anchor the console to the wall behind. Also, the old console looks great, it’s not a surprise he wants to keep it..

And what do you mean people want to hold on to their money? The obvious starting point is supporting the floor from underneath and then securing the console to the wall. There's nothing to throw money at here until he addresses those issues.
Why do you say I'm "mad!?" I was just expressing my thoughts. How you choose to interpret them is on you.

Most people want to hold on to their money. Why does this seem to irritate you?

Everything else you said was part of my initial response which most everyone seemed to not take to heart.

toddverrone..Chill!