You must be bored!The Parsifals,regardless of vintage are one of the very finest speakers one can own.I've heard them on loads of occassions.Driven with every conceivable electronic combo.They were designed for the "real world" listening room,and hobbyist.Why?Why?Why,would you want to "sidegrade"?
Wow. That would be a surprising change. To be fair, I haven't heard the VR4 Gen III's (though all those numbers make me suspicious already). I have heard Von Schweikert speakers (don't remember which model or Gen or whatever), but having owned the Parsifal Encore's a few years ago, I have to say that this is a no contest.
The Parsifals (as you already know) make for some of the most relaxed non-fatiguing listening one can get! So natural.
Ultimately, it's your ears, but I will admit to being surprised by this move.
To be fair, I haven't heard the VR4 Gen III's...but having owned the
Parsifal Encore's a few years ago, I have to say that this is a no contest.
How can you declare this a "no
contest" when you admit having never heard the VR4 Gen III HSE
It's like saying shrimp is a no contest winner over steak, without having
ever eaten steak. You simply cannot make a comparison between two
things when you only have experience with one, but sharing your
firsthand knowledge of the Parsifal's is certainly valuable.
The Parsifal Ovation speakers are nearly triple the price of the Von
Schweikerts, but then the VR4 Gen III HSE have been compared to $20k
speakers in some reviews, so price alone does not dictate which one
someone will prefer.
Royy, I own the VR4 Gen III HSE, so I can answer many questions you
have about them, but I'd first like to know what you're hoping to
accomplish with the change...what music you like...and what the rest of
your gear is besides the Gamut D200 amp.
Honestly, though, I believe the short answer to your question is that you
have to hear the VR4 Gen III HSE in your own home to decide. They are
often available used on Audiogon at prices that afford you the
opportunity to buy them, try them, and re-sell them if you choose
without getting hurt in the wallet.
That's what I'd recommend doing.
the verity's are MUCH BETTER. sometimes audiophiles are determined to be self destructive.....i've been there.
Jaybo, looking at your threads, it's clear you have experience with a wide array of products. I'm sure you would agree your opinion would be better supported with specifics. At least it would be more informative than a simple "this is the way it is".
Also, it's also apparent by looking at your past loudspeaker posts that you have a bias against Von Schwiekert, which is obvious by several of your posts in which you answer questions regarding Brand A vs. Von Schweikert by recommending whatever is Brand A.
It doesn't matter to me that your prefer something other than VonSchweikert , but it'd be valuable to read what forms your opinion specifically regarding the Parsifal and VR4 Gen III HSE loudspeakers.
if switching to the Von Schweikert lineup, I would be tempted to try what I believe is the 'db99' model? Given the efficiency, they could be driven by low-powered triodes and might provide a somewhat different presentation to the VR4- just a thought...
Royy, I would agree with Grant (Tvad) that your listening tastes would have a lot of input in this decision. I own the Verity Audio Parsifal Encore's, and I've auditioned the VR-4 Jr's several times, as well as the VR-4 Sr's and the DB-99's. I haven't heard the VR 4 Gen III's though, but the other Von Schweikert speakers present a house sound. This is not a bad thing, as most high end companies tend to have a house sound.
From my listening experiences, the VR's tend to be more dynamic, powerful and detailed, while the Parsifal's are more delicate, textured and vibrant. Personally, I prefer the Parsifal's for my musical tastes, which run more towards vocals and small jazz bands. I could see fans of large orchestral works or rock bands preffering the VR's dynamic kick though. They are not very similar really, and only you know what kind of music that you enjoy, so only you can ultimately decide which speaker best suits you.
Maybe you could listen to a few amps before swapping speakers.
I owned a GamuT D200 too : it's not the better component i bought.
Your point is reasonably well taken. It isn't as bad though as never having eaten steak and declaring shrimp the winner because I HAVE heard Von Schweikert speakers and you will have to admit as John above states that THERE IS A HOUSE SOUND! So I've definitely had steak and believe I can compare steak versus shrimp (though I agree that it's not the same as the steak served at the VR4 Gen III restaurant)!
In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with John above - the Parsifal's are spectacular with vocals, jazz and generally "less dynamic or better still "less rock-like" music. The Von Schweikert (at least the one I heard) may (and I stress may) have been better, but I didn't think so. But that's my taste which is what you get when you ask people's opinions. (Eventually, I wanted more oomph too from my speakers and was fortunate to have ended up my speaker search when I m oved from the Verity Parsifal's to the Sonus Faber Amati's - which give me both the magical smoothness of the Parsifal's and more).
Regardless of all this (minor) quibbling, the bottom line is good luck Royy!
Getting that upgrade itch, hugh? Go for it, but not with the Parsifals. IMO you could pair those babies with a better amp. One of many possibles: Art Audio Adagio. Happy Easter.
Hello, first of all, just in case you may be interested, I offer my humble Audiogon review of the Parsifal speaker, dating back to 2002, so I hope my comments will be taken with a bit of credibility as a previous owner of the Parsifal ( owned them for 4 years ). You will notice that the associated amps used with it included some ''budget'' amplifiers. Past the 2002 mark, I did go on to some kilobuck amplification. My quick take, the Gamut is all you need with these beauties.
I think that the gear-lust infected nature of this expensive hobby has taken priority over the real reason we (I think) should be directing our interests : The love of music.
There is nothing wrong with gear lust. High-end audio can stand on its own as a supplier of pleasure-inducing works of art. I personnaly would rather spend money on a work of art that generates music and visuals (Shanling's stunning cd players comes to mind) rather than, let's say, a bronze statue or an expensive antique table. All personal choices.
To get back to the initial thread here, I feel that the Parsifal fall in this category of what could be considered a functional ''work of art'' that at the same time can provide great musical pelasure.
I sold my prized Parsifals only for financial reasons. But you know what ? Even at the end of my ownership, I took this sublime-sounding speaker for granted and actually had found faults with it.
My next speaker was a Sonus Faber Grand Piano, considered a fine choice by many...and a strong ''downgrade'' in my book compared to the Verity. Comparing the just-arrived SF with my recent-memoried Parsifal sound made the SF speaker sound awful by comparison, edgy and cheap-souding. I almost couldn't listen to it. That's how spoiled I had been with the Parsifals.
After a month of owning the Grand Piano's, it actually sounded pretty good. It was not a measure of breaking-in of the speaker, but a measure of getting ACCUSTOMED to it's sound. Vocals sounded great.
THEN I downgraded further to a set of QUAD 22L's. The step downwards was of course not as steep. And after a month of owning them, I actually thought they sounded better than the Grand Pianos.
Most recent downgrade: A pair of Polk Audio LSi 15 speakers. To most audiophiles, just mentionning the word ''POLK'' is blasphemy.
Whadyanow....these are GREAT speakers, no kidding (many threads here to prove it). Easily worth 3 times it's price, and smokes many well-known speakers - no kidding.
I also OWNED Von Schweikert VR4 speakers. Nice speakers too, but not to my personal taste, so I kept them 2 months only. But I can understand how people would rave about them for their own respective reasons.
My point is this. No matter what speakers one owns, we end up getting used to the sound, slipping into a comfort zone, finding flaws, and wanting to re-ignite the ''thrill of discovery'' as for many of us, (me included for a long while, but no longer ) the thrill on gear-seeking becomes more important than the music. And at what cost?
Countless hours selling your present gear, countless hours searching and buying the new gear, with one end result for sure. You will end up liking the new speakers, then get used to them, then start looking for something new.
All these hours that could be put to better use - family, friends, kids, or just listening to more music and discovering new artists.
When I put my Parsifals up for sale, everyone I know told me I was nuts. It is probably the only time in my life that everyone, and I do mean everyone - were right on the money with that one.
I just feel that for most folks, the Verity speaker will probably represent their final speaker destination - free at last from the upgrade prison. Unless you have a lot of free time or free money, or both, to spread around.
I would just keep the Parsifals if I were you, and enjoy them, or better yet, enjoy their qualities which strongly outperform the faults you may have found with them.
Sorry for this long post - the door was wide open, and connected with my personal reality.
tvad...the basis of my opinion on VS speakers comes from years of listening to them as well as others at various sound rooms and trade shows over years. A dear friend of mine owned a store called Great Plains Audio in Minnesota and he carried VS, Hales, ProAc, Naim, Revel, and others........of all these lines, he found the VS to be the easiest to sell when a 'short' A-B audition was the deciding factor in a purchase. the warm upper bass, and a forward midrange is always impressive, particularly with simple acoustic based music, and female vocals(patricia barber has sold lots of hi fi). There's nothing wrong with enjoying the sound of any loudspeaker, its just that a loudspeaker design that truly favors no one frequency is always going to be more satisfying if you love all kinds of music and do a lot of listening. I also believe that manufacturers should be forthcoming about how and where their speakers are made. there are decent loudspeakers being built everywhere, but companies that sell major ticket items don't disclose their origins, are wrong to do so. the verity parsifal is an extremely neutral loudspeaker and perform well with tubes or ss, and more importantly play all genres of music very, very well. i could live with them. i am not a designer or engineer. just someone who has been involved in the industry since high school, and i have had the opportunity to produce, market, sell software and hardware....and work with some of the greatest sound and picture men in the world, as well as artists. for the money we spend on this hobby, opinions aren't a bad thing, even if you don't agree. thanks
Hi Jaybo, and thanks for your thoughts. Yes, all opinions are important,
and welcome...especially when they are supported with the reasons that
form them because it's then that the opinions are the most helpful.
Just so I am clear on the issue of place of manufacture, it's my
understanding that the VR4 Gen III HSE is/was made in California (unlike
some of VS's other loudpseakers). Is that your understanding, too?
My belief is based on having to wait a few extra days for shipment of my
VS's from El Cajon, CA because the laquer had not yet dried on the end
tvad ..i believe you are correct. you guys should always try and buy what makes you happy on a purely emotional level......there's a world of things that cost a fortune that i wish we could live without(new airconditioning in arizona as an example).
Sonicbeauty,one of the GREAT posts.My hat's off to ya!!
sonicbeauty has figured this hobby out.
How many recognize the audiophile that Sonicbeauty described? I know that I am raising my hand.
Sonicbeauty is right on the money, about the Parsifal's and audiophiles.
I'm nearing the end of a major downsizing. The only two components that survived were my analog front end (sans the phono stage), and my Parsifal Encore's. I was able to pull $20K out of my system (after expenses for the 'newer' gear) and still hold on to the Parsifal's. I'm still listening happily, and living easier.
Sometimes we get too wrapped up in the chase for the ultimate goal, which doesn't exist. As soon as we find it, we find something else wrong with it and change our ultimate goal. This disease, not the music but the equipment, is hard to cure. I think my next step is to cancel the glossy rags and stop visiting AudiogoN daily.
No sense for a recovering alcoholic stopping at a bar every day to visit his friends or receiving the monthly Vineyard magazines now, is there?
Sorry Royy, didn't mean to hijack your thread with a sermon. Keep the Parsifal's and be happy.
keep the Parsifal, I went from the Sonus Faber Amati
to the Parsifal.
I like the Parsifals, Verity is a good solid Canadian speaker company with a great history of making excellent sounding speakers I have heard them on many occasions and know a few people who own their little brother the Fidelios, which are impressive in their own right. I heard the Parsifals most recently at the Montreal show last month. Very neutral and smooth speaker. If all I listened to was jazz, classical or light sound music, I agree they are as good as you are likely to get at their price point. However with other types of music I was very far from impressed. Put on rock, heavier pop, industrial, techno or reggae... there are many far far better speakers...including perhaps the VS 4 HSE. at 1/3 their price. Because I listen to all music types from Enya to Nine Inch Nails, my speakers would have to be capable across the entire fequency band. Paying the price of addmission for a 'limited' speaker does not seem to me like the way I would advise someone to go... audiophile or music lover, unless they were very certain about their music preference and are willing to live with the compromise.
I am not sure, but the Parsifals go for about 15-20K. That the VS VR4 HSE at 6-7K are even raised in the same thread as a competitor to the Parsifals is fascinating to me and a testament to how good VS speakers really are at their price point. I think the new VR5 at 18-20K will be more of a realistic competitor (dollar to dollar) to the Parsifals, both visually and sonically. However, something tells me it will be absolutely no contest if wanting a capable speaker for ALL types of music.
This is all of course MHO. YMMV
Hi RoyY, I have owned a pair of Logan Sequel II for 16 years until i decided it was time for a change. I had changed or upgraded everything else in my system so it was time. The Logans had given a wealth of enjoyment over the years. Long story short, went to Montreal to visit family this past x-mas and while there went to Filtronique to audition JM Lab Diva and Sonus Faber Cremona. Following this audition, the guy said "have you ever heard a pair of Verity". I said Verity, what's that?? He hooked up a pair of Parsifal Ovations to an Ayer 60watts intergrate. I was freakin' floored from what i heard. Unfortunately i could not afford the price tag. In february i see a pair on the Gon used for sale but the Encore model not Ovation. I made the purchase. I guy from Quebec City. They are now in my system hooked up to my vintage ARC gear modified by GNSC and i have not looked back. I have never heard the VR4 Gen III but i can tell you that the Diva's, Cremona's, Logan Sequel II's can not touch the Encore's let alone the Ovation's. IF these are not the last speakers i will ever own, the next pait will be the Verity Sarastro.....maybe. Cheers.......
First of all, I want to thank everyone, especially Sonicbeauty, for taking the time to respond to my post. I had only heard the Vonschweikert Gen III briefly when I started this thread.
A fellow Audiogoner who happened to be in my area allowed me to listen to his VS Gen III again, and I also went to a local dealer and listened to the latest Vonsweikert Sr.
jmcgrogan2 is right, VS speakers have a house sound; they sounded very similar to the Gen III. When I got back home, I queued up the same CD to my system and got a big smile. The Parsifals are staying. What I have observed about the Verity is exactly what Sonicbeauty and jmcgrogan2 said. I think Audiogon member email@example.com is also right--I'm just bored!!!
Congrats on realizing the situation BEFORE making a change Royy. Too many don't realize that change just for changes sake can ruin a system. The glossy rags can cause one to think they are missing out on something glorious, but that is simply their job, to write prose that enchants audiophiles to keep spending money regardless of what is best for them.
Relax Royy, and just enjoy the music.