The Encores should have plenty of bass depending on placement, cables and amplification. The Shindo's are low powered no?? Any speaker needs to be controlled and told what to do...low power may be euphonic for some types of music, but falls short for accuracy and dynamic impact. Great speaker cables that make it easier for your amps to do their work may also be a consideration, otherwise use a great sub like the fathom.
I agree with Dave. Per a conversation with Antoine over at Verity last year, he mentioned that my 60 watt Pass Aleph Os would be enough to drive my Encores in my room. I've been driving them with the X350.5 and the bass is not lacking. So this past week, I took out the Aleph Os and hooked it up to the system. It sounded anemic as in no bass, and missing some top end extension. And soundstage just kind of shrunk. Maybe the Aleph needs to be re-broken in again. But for now, I'll stick with the X350.5.
I had heard the Strat at L.A. Stereophile show a few years back driven by all Nagra gears. That demo was the one that put Verity on a short list for my speaker search. Last year, Artemis used them to demo all Artemis gear (tube amps) in a pretty large room. The Artemis may sound good, but those tube monoblocks were just not powerful enough to drive the speakers in a room that size. I could barely hear the music when I was the only person sitting in the sweet spot trying to audition the system.
I agree with Gundam, first time i got my Parsifal Encore i feel the bass was shy with my CONRAD JONHSON PREMIER TWELVE of 140 WPC. Few months later i replaced the mono amps by a pair of LAMM M 2.2 and now the Parsifal sing starting from the bottom end up to the very high frequencies.If you look to the spec of the Parsifal they look like easy one to drive but they need clean power of high quality watts. They can full fill a large room (mine is 23 X 23).With the Parsifal if you don't hear bass it is because it is not on the record...not hearthquake shaking one but a very realistic bass too me
Hope this help, i think ading a sub could mess the fabulous mid range
One more vote for amp matching. I've tried +/- a dozen amps with the P/Es and the bass respomse varies enormously. Specifically, an Atma-Sphere s30 was eaten alive by the parsifals- no bass at all. OTOH, a 50W Krell KSA 50s produced deep, tight, powerful bass. I, too, would recommend a different amp, not a sub for your bass issues.
Yes, Amps can and will make a difference...I have the Ovations and use a NuForce SE9 V2. I have also reviewed Bryston 4BSST and Conncence Tube Monoblocks. All made a difference in bass.
I now have a pair of Nagra's on the way, and I expect additional bass changes..
With that said, if the Sarastos II are within your reach....GRAB THEM!! IMHO.
Hi. Thanks for the input. The Shindos are 80wpc and they enhance the bass versus my old solid state Levinson amp (75wpc). Sorry, I'm not suggesting Verity PEs are weak in the bass, just that it is where I feel these speakers can be better. I'm talking at the margin, just something to scratch my itch to explore... Please take my request in that context.
Sounds like no one believes a sub is a worthy path to explore. Also have to say that the Shindo/Verity match is phenomenal, and I think I've tried a good representation of amps (including Krell) over the years.
I am one who feels,in your case the sub option is a very good idea!
I've heard your speaker alot,and have definitely heard good bass,but with 100 wpc push pull amps.In a rather large room,if one can believe it.
I think,if you like your choice of electronics(a damn good one,btw)a well integrated sub(with built in amp) can be your ticket!!
I had a similar situation with my Avalon Ascent Mk-II speakers...
This is an amazing speaker(by any standard,assuming the room volume is correct).I had built a dedicated room just for it to breath,but wanted to allow for the amazing staging,the speaker can give.
These are a sealed design,with 110 lbs of external crossovers.I had them out about eight feet into the room(from back wall),which is where Avalon felt they would be optimum.Yes,I could "do" that location,and loved it,but my lowest freq(under forty hz)took a "slight" hit!No big deal,but...with the plethora of today's quite good subs(at all price ranges,and don't believe the naysayers)I felt I could get it all.
I DID!!!...but it also took me a long time to properly voice the two to perfection(the Ascents are bullet fast in mid bass,not to mention amazing resolution/tonality in mids/highs).One reason it takes so long is because once you "go sub" you cannot help but to lose yourself in BIG bass!!Alot of it,and it will ultimately(guaranteed)have to be re-voiced,once you get over the newness of so much low freq power,and ultimately decide to "go for accuracy"!You'll do that too.
IT WILL DEFINITELY TAKE SOME TIME!
I added a REL Stentor,and though ALL my friends were against this,it has worked out marvelously.
No hint of discontinuity,basically because my objective was to "only" add a hint if low freq weight/depth.
I cannot see any scenario where you should get rid of such superb electronics,that you already "know" works well with the speaker,to attempt to control the woofer better.
IMO,you'd be taking a chance,and could easily lose the magic the Shindo brings(it has a reputation for a good reason).
There are many options,in both size and price,for you to consider.One thing for sure is that you won't go through the hassle of "selling" and "buying" and ultimately taking a chance with a fabulous amp(like the Shindo).
It's far easier to actually borrow a smaller sub,to play around with,for awhile.There's some "killer" ones out there!Then you'll have a better idea of where you stand.
Sirspeedy - I like your thoughts. I do have a Definitive Audio supercube in my HT setup - maybe I'll play with that as a starting point.
Here's a question from a true sub newbie: I have no "sub" out from my pre-amp (Shindo Masseto). How does one hook up a sub to this system?
Again, thanks for your input.
Hatari, just use a pre-out line if you have one. I also use (2) definitive 200tl subs wt mapleshade heavyfeat...used sparingly for the lowest octaves they work extremely well for the cash outlay.
I used 300B Pwer amp to drive my Parsifal encores with no
difficlties, good and clear bass , controlled just right
( which previously for mezzo utopia was a failure ).
wonder why some had experience problem of lacking bass ???
do you mean "using only the Parsifal Monitors ???
For exisitng " Encore" users, I just discovered by chance
that for some 3-4 years, BDR has been tailor-making
special BDR Shelves for Parsifal, exactly fit for
replacing the Granite. If not upgrading to the Metal
Platform of "ovation", this is a good up-grade.
I just bought a pair last week, feeling "worth-buying".
Look up if your dealers around have these.
Dpang233, interesting! I knew that Symposium makes platforms specifically for Parsifals. Didn't know BDR did as well. I ended up purchasing a set of the new platform (used on the Ovation) from Verity. It's a heavy metal base with 8 sticky rubbery pads. They work pretty well. Also, Verity have these new jumper cables made by Discover cables for $80!
I also had good results using BDR #4 cones under the speakers. They sounded more focused with tighter bass than the stock brass feet.
How much power is your 300B amp putting out?
I 've found the Parsifal Encore very esaily to drive,
( as I sold my mezzo Utopia at once after trying Parsifal ,
My previous mistake to use 300B S.E. with Utopia, then I changed to Canary CA303 (2 x 300B P-P,manual stating 26 Watts, I stay with 300B always;
still cannot control the Utopia's bass )
after switching to Parsifal, everything is perfect
( at least perfect to me, and loved by my other audiophile
friends too ). It can handle well large sound stage
like playing Carmen Habenera Fantasia; Hungarian Rhasody;
Symphonie Fantastique op.14, " New World" etc. as well as
fine detailed strings & guitars.
I came across the BDR Platform by chance, with the Leaflets/attachments in the packing, it seems it is
a line already developed, especially they made the size
(though about 0.1-0.15 mm smaller than the granite )
the tilt edge, ( sloping edge ) and all corners are fitting
as the granite, except you can see the horizontal lines
on the sides ( BDR put a label at the bottom, stating this
No.has tiny cosmetic flaws, as they are not polishing,
or covering the sloping sides further )
I bought them ( sh be much more expensiver then the Verity
Ovation Platform, I think ) It is priced USD 705.- /pair.
they supplied ten Damping pads.
I don't mind the cost as I really love my Parsifal very
much. I 've then purchased more 6pcs BDR Mk 4 cones to
my Dual Mono Block Pre-amp, they make improvements too.
I am goint to buy 6 pcs more ( But Mk 3 ) for the 2 chassis of Power supply of the Pre-amp next week.
If you are also using Parsifal,the kind that bi-wiring is
not to consider, and as they have the cross-over/filter ( I don't know the exactness , is for the speaker signals to
pass thru the low range unit first, then with jumpers to
deliver to the monitors. I had tried with
XLO Limited Ed. , audio Notes Sogon Jumpers, but I finally
selected Siltech's Emperor G6 SATT Jumpers, expensive
but I have used them for more than 2 years now, I am sill
happy with this "good buy". Never " good-bye" to Parsifal and these Emperor Jumpers, I think.
Friends that would not beleive
such "wrongly_priced- one friend claimed, came to my house
with numerous jumpers they had used, all agreed with
my decision. If "Emperor" is too expensive, one may try
"eskay" I hope, as siltech's nature fit Parsifal's
or other speaker of high definition too ;the utmost fine resolution, a sound with "grace". If you say "not natural"
I have no word to fight back. I buy them to please myself
never consider to stay dry, dull, just clean.
I even said many times, if one day I shall meet one
"used / re-selling" Siltech Emperor 8 ft sp cable( good
condition ) I will take them in, though it costs more than
the parsifal. ( the Jumpers gave me the confidence that
this speakerscable must be for lifetime keeping.
As I noted above, I shuffled a whole bunch of amps into and out of a system featuring Parsifal Encores. My Cary 300B monos, which work wonderfully with many other speakers - including Merlin VSMs - couldn't drive the P/Es at all. An early Atma S-30 produced so little bass, I was concerned that either the speaker or amp was broken, till I switched them to other partners and they performed well. IME, the P/Es have worked welll with modestly powered SS amps, but have tortured exotic, low powered tube amps into real distress.
Just my experience.
The Verity website offers no valuable information, nor does it inspire confidence. Is Verity owned by some foreign conglomerate or are they just deliberately vague?
Dpang233: what size room do you have, and do you use the Verity P/Es with the sub unit forward or backward facing? How far from the wall do you place them? Thanks for the input.
the Current Web_site has not carried Users' Manual of
Parsifal Encore, nor they have those detailed Users' manual
on web, they only accompanied packing.
I have looked up my User Manual, the file was dated
July 2001, and there was one whole page explaining
the fine, detailed, fast, sensitiveness of the drivers.
and also one page with Heading
" Using Low Power Tube Amplication "
I quoted " ...mid-sensitivity 89db @ 1W @ 1 meter.....
In an average room of 1500 cubic ft., 10 watts of amplication could get 94 db SPL. which is the time-average
spectra level for a theatre organ or a bass drum. For those who enjoy realistic playback levels, it is normally
"We took special care to makethe low frequency impedance-curve more easy to drive for low-power amprefiers. the lowest impedance presented by the P/encore is it DC resistance of 4.0 ohms; at its tuning frequency of 30HZ and up to 100Hz the mean impedance is bout 65. ohms, having the lowest point at 4.0ohms..... the monitor, when used a lone, at nominal impedance of 8.0 ohms, out design
is to adjust the overall frequency balance. typically , a good setup could use as little as a 20-watt amplifier in an average or lively listening room of 2,000 cu.ft."
we tried several low-power amplifier with Parsifal and
got very good result "
my room is (ft) 25 x 15 x 9 H,but I am placing the Parsifal
Back-firing at the longer wall... , not near to the side wall atl all ; actually Low bass is
less than with tehm against the shorter wall..nearer to the side wall.
I am well familiar with the Fibonacci's nos. applied in too many aspects of life, so they are just 59 inches (
membrance of mid/tweeter to rear wall ).
I repeated, friends using much more power Amps than mine
mine more higher grade ( & size ) speakers than Parsifal
has come and listen... for the parsifal as well as the
"legendary" Siltech /emperor G6 Satt Jumpers I used on them
none of them has claimed the parsifal played with my
"average" quality in their mind, Canary CA303 mono-block
300B power amp (only 26 watt )lack of any bass , at folk, rock, large scale symphonies.
are U using BDR Mk4 cones on the woofer units of
Parsifal, with "screw-rod" they supply ??
and with BDR " pits" the exact name I forgot, benneath ???
If you have proved them o.K. I may add those too.
I am using 3 BDR Mk 4 cones under each speaker. They won't fit into the screw-rod. So, they are just sitting under neath the speakers. I just went to the hardware store and bought these metal screw covers for the screw-rods, so they won't damage the hardwood floor when I change footers.
I had used them when I first got the speakers over a year ago. Few months ago, I thought I would try the stock feet. The stock feet turned out to be not as focused and bass was not as tight. I listend to them for a few weeks, then switch back to the BDR Mk 4, and was amazed.
I have not tried anything else. I had these sitting around, so I tried them, and they are fairly inexpensive. If you don't like them, you can always sell them fairly fast.
Having the separate-units placed, I worry a little the safety if the cones are just placed underneath, espically only 3 pcs , but with 4, one must use screwing post to adj.
I have been using the Brass foot supplied by Verity, to protect the floor from their fine Pointed tips, I had tried
with Woods like ebony & padouk 3-4 inches squares, but later I used "Linn" skeet(s), the sound was O.K., and the
holes of those skeet are best fit for those pointed tips
that they can sit so firmly and tightly so that moving slightly the speakers need no extra effort.
I may try the BDR cones, if I check there is screw-post both fitting the woofers of Parsifal and the cones.
thanks for your input.
Hi, all of you
Please accept my poor english as well as my typing skill
on previous post of Parsifal's manual
" amplication" sh be amplification
" monitor...at a nominal impedance of 8.0 Ohms, OUR design
( not " out design " )
tehm sh be " them" in " with them standing agains the
shorter wall.... may be too many mistakes
not to post, is better !!!!!!!!!
Try a solid state amp. The Veritys are already very musical so I think you can bare with solid state. I'm 100% sure your speaker is under-driven.
Have you ever tried one?
I own the Sarastros which are 93 db and I thoungt I was driving them very good with the Mcintosh MC-2102 and C-2200 (100W) until I used solid state, which took the performance to a whole new level.
A subwoofer would be my last choice. In my experiency they cause more problems than they solve.
Also your source and cables are very important. Try some Virtual Dynamics cables if you can.
Thanks. Yes, I had a solid state amp before this Shindo. Again, my Shindos are the 80wpc version, so plenty of power to drive the speaker. In all honesty, the first thing I noticed (perhaps b/c I didn't expect to) was how much tighter and more natural the bass was with the Shindo after I switched. Go figure.
I think many mis-read my post. I'm tweaking, not complaining about bass. I think I have world class sources, and use siltech and Stealth cables. It's all there and sounds wonderful, works very well together and took me 7yrs to assemble. Absolutely am not looking to change my equipment as I know it works super well, just was curious about the application of subs. I get the feeling most think it's a bad idea, but I may try it out just for fun.
You have great speakers and setup!
I know what you mean. It happens to me too. Everything is going great but we still want that little bit better. The thing is not to ruin things or "sidegrade".
Happy Listening my friend!