As long as they are honest about themselves being a vendor and they post professionally I have no problem. An example is Albert Porter. He is a vendor and has been a solid contributor here for a long time. Follow that pattern and there will be no problem.
If a vendor is posing as a customer or trying to sneak in a review about a product or even if they are trying to sell in the forum to me that is a no go.
I remember some time ago there was a vendor trying to generate buzz about a turntable lift. They tried to pose as normal posters here touting the product. They got caught that they were a vendor. It was a good product but no one took them seriously after that.
As long as they're not hawking their wares like some carnival barker, I'm fine with their advice. Even when they offer their product as a palliative, as long as that palliative has a proven track record, and it fits into the discussion, then it's okay with me. It should never be passed off as a cure.
It's a fine line to toe. The same can even be said for reviewers, engineers, et al, anyone who has a particular expertise and a leg up on others.
They can offer advice but not push their product as the end all to end all.
All the best,
Most are fine.
A few add little value and seem to muddle issues intentionally.
To better service the users/customers, Audiogon needs better controls in general to help control misinformation and/or nonsense. However, AUdiogon does not seem overly interested in censorship except if it is bad for business. I understand that. There are many grey areas in high end audio. WHere to draw the line? So it is what it is.
Even misinformation can be information to the discerning reader........
Allow me to chime in on this subject as I'm one of the manufactures that will if I see fit post on a subject.
I am careful as to not offer opinion in a post if it is about my product, unless someone asks a specific question about it, or if i feel someone is offering misinformation about some of what I make.
My most frequent post will be if someone asks about what phono preamp to choose, that question actually comes up often, I will encourage the OP to include our Liberty in his/her search include a link to our site that one has the option to click on. I always identify my self as the maker of the product.
It is my job to make awareness about our products in this an any other forum, and if someone asks about what to choose - why is it an issue to make awareness about another option available.
As Always, good listening
I find it hard to believe these vendors have nothing better to do, so they visit this forum. It's all marketing. They are either marketing their product or marketing theirselves. Many folks may think it's ok, I think it is inappropriate. Vendors should advertise in the proper manner.
'To better service the users/customers, Audiogon needs better controls in general to help control misinformation and/or nonsense'
That would certainly cull the herd!! I could end up talking to myself!!
What if the vendor/mfgr is using different usernames to promote the wares and bash other mfgrs wares while hiding behind a moniker? Would you want to know?
Everyone has an agenda. Whether good or bad.
Some are worse than others, and some get the reputation of troll.
Some just waste time offeringwhat the hope is reasonable advice, andtry to do it with a bit of humor. me?
Some are the grammar police. Some thought police..
Who cares. EVERY post is a possible fraud. And only the reader can decide.
The internet is totally the old wild west. Anything goes shoot em' up.
At least some rules have been in place at most sites, but really, everything anyone, no matter who, must be scrutinized carefully as to: "is this good advice?" "Can they be trusted on this?"
Any other attitude is likey to fail.
The internet is really a bad place for stupid people to try to learn anything.
Great post Rok2id, I enjoyed it!
I've no objection, as long as they identify themselves, and don't run down other products.
Most of the professionals here are also hobbyists, often among the most experienced here, and I value their perspective. Peter, Duke (who seems quiet lately), Steve N. are a few that come to mind.
I could end up talking to myself!!
Would that count as a change, Rok? ;)
'Would that count as a change, Rok? ;)'
Upon further reflection, no, it would not be a change. Getting rid of the nonsense is just another way of saying getting rid of all the 'Audiophilia' stuff, and just leave the music lovers, and apparently I am the only music lover on this site.
So your implication is correct, I have beeen talking to myself all along. Now I am depressed!!
There is one guy not to mention any names,that all he does is push Vandersteens in all of his answers to questions. As a matter of fact I have been in his store to listen to products and have run in to the same problem. All he wants to do is push Vandersteen! I have owned Vandrsteens in the past but give me a break. I think he must own stock in that company or he just might be related to R.Vandersteen, who knows for sure, just sayin'!
Hmm, would be nice if relatives and/or business associates or even just friends of vendors would disclose....
More culling.....getting lonely......
I wonder what ulterior motive prompted this thread! Thank you, Elizabeth.
Yogiboy, I know who you mean. I called his store inquiring about ProAcs and he tried talking me into Vandersteens.
I was trying to formulate a post until I read Elizabeths. My thoughts exactly, expressed so much better than I would have.
Aah, but what exactly is Elizabeth's agenda?
My vendor is fully aware of Audiogon but does not partake. He took out a full page ad in Stereophile back in the 90's and that was all it took to get his name out there. He managed to garner many lifetime customers from that ad from all over the world. He doesn't make a ton of money but enough to sustain. He truly enjoys his work and is the most honest person I know. He is the reason I will never buy from Audiogon any longer and it has nothing to do with Agon. I'm just fortunate enough to buy new and I want him to succeed. I don't want the retailer to go by the wayside. I like going to the shop with tunes in hand and listen to 4 different systems.
I CAN APPRECIATE people who have heard A LOT of different components and set-ups both in stores, homes, and audio shows. whoever they might be. but of course the more transparent their contributions the higher they rank as someone whose primary role is to offer their help. "IMHO" is okay when making comparisons between how two "component-X's" sound. since these forum articles appear all over google and elsewhere, it's nice if someone really has been there and done that. that's a very cool thing (imho). reliable information doesn't have to come from (only) reviewers, manufacturers, dealers, etc. but if they're really making an effort to "fit in" and be a fellow listener, i could sure use some good advice.
THough I would not censor them on Agon, I am not comfortable usually even with vendors that disclose that offer reviews or endorsements of others products even if sincere or accurate. Its hard to tell sometimes if they sell what they are touting. And did they actually pay for what they tout? There are many things I might endorse if given, loaned or specially discounted for to me to try or buy. As a buyer, I want to know if something I can buy is a good value. Expensive things should all be exceptional. If not, why bother? Things can get very grey when there is always a best (fill in the blank) of the day, until the next best (fill in the blank) is discovered. At least professional reviewers don't sell or profit from what they tout (do they)?
I have no problems with vendors that actually design the products they sell and disclose as appropriate that they are vendors of that design. I expect that they will each think they have a great product if its their own design especially when others agree. Who wouldn't?
Vendors are people too, no problem with them posting...however they do need to disclose their status.
There are some that don't disclose they are a dealer for products that they post on/in.
Problem is how would Audiogon or anyone on here know who is whom. Beats me.
Of the vendors posting on these forums, those I give top marks to are Robert Neill of Worldwide Wholesales (HiDiamond Cables), Bobby Palkovic (Merlin Speakers) and Ted Denney (Synergistic Research). They distinguish themselves by their professionalism and their amazing knowledge base coupled with impeccable integrity. Unfortunately, there are some vendors here who do not come close to their "standard of excellence". There must be other exemplary vendors who post here that I am not aware of.
Who cares? If you effectively cannot filter the quality of information, then banning or censoring specific people really won't help you.
Bottom line, in general, respect and integrity are the keys. Respect is earned usually. Integrity is established over time. Forums provide the means but there are risks. Censorship is bad. Antisocial behaviors should not be tolerated in a social medium. Censorship might be considered a form of antisocial behavior.
I agree with those above who have noted the predations of the Vandersteen Enforcer.
Om the other hand, he appears to be genuinely passionate about the speakers, and although I seem to recall that he is not quite compulsive about using the dealer disclaimer, I doubt anyone is deceived.
For all that, non-professionals are often guilty of the one-recommendation-fits-all posting persona. There's a private user who recs Vandys for everything, even when the OP is asking about a drill press or vacuum cleaner. And to be fair, I probably get a bit repetitive about the kit I like.
In the end, I see the presence of professionals on the site as a big plus.
Don't be depressed Rok! Given that most individual kit purchases are much bigger investments than most individual music purchases, it's unsurprising that boards have more dithering about gear. But there's a lot of music discussion here; it's one of the best things about the site (looks like I post most about speakers, second most about music).
My only complaint about the music threads is that some guy keeps posting that people can't tell, in blind tests, the difference between bands ! ;)
'My only complaint about the music threads is that some guy keeps posting that people can't tell, in blind tests, the difference between bands ! ;)'
hahahahahahah was that a broadside across my bow??? Excellent!!!
It's fine for vendors to post, and they're pretty decent fellows for the most part. They have their reasons for posting, and are often beneficial to the forums. There's one vendor here who is a world-class ass**** on practically every word he writes here... and he could care less.
'There's one vendor here who is a world-class ass**** on practically every word he writes here... and he could care less.'
I think we all know who HE is!!
Vendors, at least some have been quite helpful with information and insight. Because of their contributions to various threads it may serve as one you may wish to conduct business with down the road. They I feel should let you know they are vendors. They are the ones with the most access and first hand experience with many brands.
There is an up and coming speaker builder who posts under different usernames promoting his product. You would never know it was him until he mistakenly posted under the wrong username in an Evolution Acoustics thread. The posts were VAPORIZED if you know what I mean!
The whole Vapor thing is very strange. Don't know what to make of it. A lot of hype and a lot of reaction for sure.
Censorship as well? In favor of who?
For years I've advocated having the same sort of identification that follows one's moniker that Audio Asylum employs. Participants can identify themselves as hobbyist/audiophile, dealer, manufacturer, or reviewer. As Elizabeth said, everyone carries a bias, but we can gain a bit more insight into those who post through such a system.
Jp1208 and Sprks, a couple of real internet tough guys huh? Well I know it's me who you say doesn't exist, just as you've both accused other Vapor Audio customers of not existing ... because nobody could possibly be a happy Vapor Audio customer right?
I'll be at RMAF, both of you say you'll be at RMAF. So I'll be waiting all weekend for one of you to find me and tell me to my face that I don't exist. My guess is if you do see me you'll tuck tail and walk away without a peep. I'll even write my screen name on my name tag so there's no mistaking ... Ryan "Doc77" Brookings.
The two of you might want to take it down a notch, Defamation lawsuits are extremely easy to bring and quite trendy these days.
Doc, You scared the hell out of me with your post and I am suffering mental anguish.
Doc-RMAF or not, alive or not, you've possibly done more damage to Vapor Audio with your threatening post than anything written here by others. Nice job as the owner/spokesperson. Instead of leaving well enough alone and positively promoting at RMAF, you've shown a true character. Good luck in your future endeavors.
Mt - you may be the kind of guy who is so afraid of confrontation that you sit by while others call you and your friends liars. I however am not. I'll embark on plenty of positive promoting at the show, but right now is time to let them know that their words will not go unchallenged.
Threat? No, you misread. It was a dare. Like all internet keyboard warriors, neither of these clowns will have the guts to tell me the same things to my face that they do on the internet. Both of them have been making accusations for months now and I'm frankly sick of it.
Mt10425, Doc77 will tell you his not affiliated with Vapor Audio at all. Check his posts in the Evolution thread. Just a happy customer who is now sue happy. LOL
Doc, why don't you show us your defamation evidence?
Doc, I'm too secure to be concerned over personal inaccuracies. It seems we don't share those securities. Keyboards are an annoyance. I'd prefer to speak to people personally, it's what I do for a living. Your last post re-affirms my initial presentation of your perceived character, although perhaps I should have added bully.
Dont care take them with a grain of salt!!
The unscrupulous ones are pretty obvious (even though they don't seem to realize it), but as with anything, their tactics must work on enough of the population to make being a dbag worth their while.
As with most other posts.
Hey, going to the dark side?
You stated, "... their tactics must work on enough of the population to make being a dbag worth their while." Exactly right. All you need to do is look at their feedback reports to see how many sales they are making by making themselves visible on these forums -- in whatever way they please. The only thing they really give a hoot about is the money. All the rest is either window dressing or obfuscation.
As long as they identify themselves as such, not only do I not mind, I welcome them. Even if I disagree with them from time to time, I find most of the contributors who have a professional link to this topic to be amongst the best contributors. I think the ones that don't properly identify themselves absolutely devalue the forum. I do wish Audiogon would provide a color code or an identifying symbol (*?) to classify the contributing poster(s).
Agree with Unsound. I agree with mars that their candy bars are all natural and healthy for you. I agree that we have a lot of only child's on this audiogon forum. But I do really agree with Unsound.
I'm not sure what you mean by vendor exactly. Do you mean some one who sells stuff rather than manufactures stuff?
Manufacturers and/or builders might have intimate insights into speaker, cable, amplifier design etc. Their knowledge, clarifications or explanations gained through experience could enhance understanding in some threads. Granted some manufacturers also sell their own products so bias could come into play although most bias among this group would probably be toward their own products. However, in some cases bias in this group might be toward a class of products, for instance a tube amp designer/builder might not like solid state.
Many vendors only sell other peoples products. They may also have unique perspectives and opinions that might be interesting to hear although their primary function is to sell the brands they represent to retailers.
Perhaps four classifications would be appropriate.
1. Regular folk, people who like music and stereos/hifi's. 8^)
2. Designer and/or Builder/Manufacturer.
3. Vendor [Wholesale] reps #2's products.
4. Dealer [Retail] Sells to public.
Just a start to a conversation. By all means add your own perspectives.
You make important distinctions here. All 4 classifications are accurate. The objections I have are:
1. Industry-connected people who do not make a disclosure.
2. Industry-connected people who trawl for business and use the forums to attract attention to themselves -- sometimes in negative ways.
2. Industry-connected people who trawl for business and use the forums to attract attention to themselves -- sometimes in negative ways.
Sabai, and members really wouldn't know who they are unless the vendor mistakenly posted under a different username and keen quick eye's caught them ;)