Vandersteen fans..need your input (TREO CT)

@nycjlee   I have Treo CTs mated to two 2wq subwoofers.  Congratulations on your system.  You have components and cables that are well known to play nicely with Vandersteen speakers.

Great question about volume level.  I have thought about this issue as well.  Here is my opinion on this.  I went from an older pair of 3A Signatures to the Treo CTs.  I have noticed myself getting up to turn up the volume much more frequently now with the Treo CT as opposed to the 3A Sigs.  I believe I'm doing this because of the clarity and smoothness of texture of the Treo CT versus the 3A Sigs.  I always wanted to listen at a "realistic" volume but the 3A Sigs. lacked that clarity and smoothness of texture.  I found myself turning the system down.

I've always considered the volume issue to be a bit of a judgement on the sonic quality of the system. The better the sound, the greater the temptation to turn up the volume.  So...your desire to turn up the volume to get things to come alive is to me a good sign for the sound quality of your system.

You might think about this. I have 2ce Sig II and I made a change (relunctantly) that enabled them to sound better at low volume. I got a hearing test. Yes many people suffer from hearing loss and do not know it. Now that I have hearing aids, I can hear a narrow higher freq band and enjoy low level
listening much moreso. Don’t laugh, many people in this hobby have hearing loss.... I lost some hearing from Military service with Air Defense artillery, Field Artillery and Spec Ops units but keep in mind the more you crank up volume on your stereo, the greater potential for hearing damage.

I think our hearing is less sensitive to high frequencies at low volumes.  Have you tried playing around with toe in? 

Excellent posts already, here's my 2 cents:
You won't get the level of SQ that's possible with your system until you have a dedicated listening room, dedicated AC line, and room treatments.
My Oppo/Krell/Vandy 2Cs went from pretty good to wonderful in my dedicated room after I did room treatments.
The room is 50% of the sound you will hear (or not hear).

Tom

PS 

Your system is awesome, it deserves the proper room and setup to really shine. Do whatever it takes, you won't regret it.

Tom

I have a vastly different system than yours (but with Vandersteen 2c’s). I was having a lot of gain issues in my room (too loud too fast) and there was an inability to play well at moderate or low levels.

I added power treatment and upgraded my AC. It plays extremely well at low levels now and the gain is more manageable. That wasn't what I was expecting from addressing my AC issues but it was a very welcome effect.

Just my ¢.02

I agree with tomcarr regarding room treatment. At the very least, walk around your room clapping your hands. Listen for any echoes.
Tack up some foam panels (try Guitar Center or Home Depot) on ONE of the walls producing echoes. Makes a difference!

+1 on addressing room issues - read the recent thread on room acoustics. And realize that response above the Schroeder frequency behaves differently from that below.
Audionoobie made an interesting observation when sitting close to his speakers. If you listen in near field you experience more direct sound from the speakers and less from the reflections in the room. If there is more bass boom when you move back, it suggests that room modes are amplifying (and degrading the quality of) the bass.

@nycjlee, 
Did Johnny set up your speakers? If so, why not give him a call and get his take on this? He'd have good knowledge of your room and could make suggestions that would apply to your room directly.
As you might remember, I have the non-CT Treo's with a pair of 2wq subs. FWIW, I, too, like to increase the volume sometimes. But, I think when listening at lower volumes you really aren't getting the lower frequencies as much as you are when listening at higher volumes. In my office, I listen at lower levels and ended up dialing up the subs to compensate. 
bob

Just a quick question, do you have carpeting or area rug in the room? If not you may want to add one. I have found that no speaker sounds good at low volumes if you haven't addressed that first bounce reflection from the floor. If you do have a rug there I would agree with gdnrbob and suggest you talk to John Rutan at Audio Connection, especially if he is your dealer. I am sure he will have some ideas for you.

I've found that low volume listening depends on your amp's power supply. A well designed "stiff" power supply will provide details and dynamic contrasts down to the lowest level. If you always think that you must increase volume to hear details, you probably need a new amp.

some thoughts
if it is perfect in the near field it is your setup, room or both
hearing test a good idea for all of us
ears aint linear, hence the loudness button...science...
if it is that you might consider a decent mac preamp with tone controls ,

you could also upgrade to 7’s i listen at considerably lower volume vs the 5a
pistonic with a lot less trash = better at lower volume levels
got the same effect just smaller magnitude when Ayre R went to twenty series...

yrmv

also s/n is critical so float some of tge grounds but not all - inky black background is just better s/n
also look for aural and electrical trash in the room
what is the level of background noise in the room ?
i had to put a bullet in the bar mini fridge as even tho it had a very quiet compressor it resonated...
short of a dedicated room can you also get all your wall warts, etc on to a seperate circuit ?

I have Vandersteen 5A's....but use earphones with a dedicated headphone amp for late night listening.  The phones are in some ways even better sounding.

If you have a somewhat dedicated audio room, I think the ideas of dweller and tomic601 are great. Clapping hands can lead to fixing echos and creating the dead room you want. If you are patient and very observant sitting very quiet in your room without any music turned on you can identify noise, particularly background noise...much of which is low level noise. Compressors (as mentioned),  traffic tires going down the road, wind coming across trees. If you have tinnitus, you will hear that. All this study can help with building the sound upward. Study how much noise you have; how do sounds behave in your room (reflect and bounce?) do external sounds compete with your stereo sound for your brain’s attention? If you want to hear low level detail, you have to create the way and environment for it to happen, no?

  (((Study how much noise you have; how do sounds behave in your room (reflect and bounce?))))
 
 Is there an Area rug that covers the first reflection off the floor?
 Best,
 JohnnyR
   

Guys - Thanks for all your comments. All of you guys pretty much confirmed what I already knew.  I need room treatments.  

@audioconnection  - Johnny, you and I already talked about my issues, when you were at my house to set up my speakers. :)  I really do need an area rug. I'll reach out to you separately.

It's been difficult getting the wife to agree on letting me get an area rug (I agree with her....it would definitely be out of place in our space).  She has been really cool about my audio spending habits so I'm not pushing the issue just yet. 

Btw, don't get me wrong guys...I'm still very happy with my current setup, but I know I can improve it especially at lower volumes.  I guess, I'll have to wait until I can move my equipment to a better location in the house where I can add room treatments.  I guess it's back to listening with headphones for now.  

Thanks again!

Happy Thanksgiving!    

 

Hi Jay
Many folks just roll out a temporary small area Mat or rug to kill the first reflection and its easy to roll it up when done.
  This way its only there when you listen.
     Best,
    JohnnyR

Thanks for the video link. That is my exact system there! Very nice. I have not noticed any low volume issues with the Treo's I still have a nice soundstage at lower volumes. Certainly there is not the bass authority as I experience at higher volumes though. Probably one thing I would wish for. Since the Treo CT's are passive either adding a sub or going to the Quattro's would bring a more solid low end at lower listening levels. I would see if adding a sub might help before room treatments. My .02 FWIW.

the loudness button....somebody must have invented it for a reason
before the sales and marketing guys ruined it...

johnnyr dont you have a decent preamp with tone controls ?

the temporary rug subwoofer loudness button....

wf is good

I upgraded from 30 year old 2cs to the Treo CT in April and I find that for them to really shine they do like the volume cranked a little.
Just think though how loud a real piano or trumpet would sound in your room.  Isn't that what we are striving for?

It might be as simple as you not having enough power for the paticular speakers that you are presently using.  I myself have the same problem running my Martin?Logan SL-3 speakers with only 130 watts per channel from my Odyssey Khartago Extreme amplifier.  Yes, playing it at a generous sound level they sound fabulous, but at lower volume levels they do not really come totally alive.  Possibly it might be mainly the lack of low-base audio reproduction, possibly the midrange does not really come into focus until I turn up the sound level.  Living in an apartment, or with others allso is a major factor for me.  Anyway, until I can afford to save up for a more expensive, as well more costly amplifier I will just have to live with limitations.  Actually presently my amplifier is the only part of my audio system which needs to be upgraded, so don't feel sorry for me.  Actually Klaus does a major uprade on his Khartago amplifier for only $400, but I would be totally without an amp during the upgrade process.

Let me expand as someone who has had a very expensive audio system, but there remain certain limitations in certain areas of audio reproduction that do not suit your own personal needs.  I do know for certain that the Vanderstein 7's when they first came out needed a humongous amount of power to run properly.  A pair of Audio Researcj Ref 200 tube amplifers did not have enough power to play rock and roll.  That is why, even with your 25 watts per channel of Ayre power might not be enough-again for your paticular needs.  Sounding great at low levels.  Most other speaker systems will not have this problem.  Call a Vanderstein and ask them.

the OP needs a nightime solution when the family is asleep

not outplay AC/DC

I have the Treo CTs fed by VTL's IT-85 integrated amp. My listening room is about 12' x 15' with no room treatment beyond a rug on the floor and curtains over the sliding-glass door. I sometimes feel I'm not hearing as much bass as I should. For instance, the 1st movement of Schubert's Symphony #8 ("Unfinished") begins with the basses (or maybe basses and cellos) playing alone, and it was very striking when I heard the Chicago Symphony play it here in San Diego a few months ago. 

So I went home and listened to the same piece on a CD (Bernstein, NY Phil) and yes, the bass at a comfortable listening volume seemed muted compared to the effect in the concert hall.

Vandersteen's website (or maybe the manual for the speakers) recommends Ray Brown's "Soular Energy" album as a good test for bass response. (Brown is a jazz bassist, playing here with piano and drums.) So I put it on just now and indeed, the bass seems more prominent at a slightly-above-normal volume level—in other words, turning up the volume seems to increase bass levels disproportionately more.

But I wouldn't swear to it. It occurs to me that conductors, musicians and recording engineers all make choices about which instruments to feature more prominently, and these may or may not agree with our expectations. Having spent hours trying to eliminate wow and flutter in my turntable that was actually (I think) in the tape the record was mastered from, I've learned that hearing is a complex sense. It's really easy, for me at least, to be persuaded I'm hearing or not hearing something I expected to hear.

"I've learned that hearing is a complex sense." 
I've recently learned (YouTube?) that there are something like a hundred nerves coming from your brain to your ears and one going from your ears to your brain (!). This means that your hearing is not a passive function but is "shaped" by your current situation/needs. When you are auditioning speakers, your mind tries to "predict" how you will respond to the speakers in your home situation. Also, your mind tries to compare the new speakers to your current ones. Lots of stuff going on simultaneously. 

John Rutan from Audio Connection is right.   I don't have little rugs to put in front of my Vandersteen 5A's, but used heavy coats from my time in New Jersey (now live in Scottsdale, Arizona).  The difference with/without coats is remarkable.....much cleaner sound.  I might buy rugs, or just keep the coats there as an homage to New Jersey...but there will be something there.

@stringreen, Nice! Don’t you miss Jersey?  I throw down some large beach towels and as expected they do make a difference.  Wifey is ok with the temporary rugs, will head over to Ikea and pick up a few area rugs.  I’m thinking shag. :)

Low level sound reproduction is dependent on several things:

1: The total resoloution of the system.  You may need to upgrade your cales or add a power conditioner which can make a huge improvement.

2: The amount of low bass as the ear is less sensitive to low bass frequencies at lower volumes.

3: Room positioning to create a room lock in terms of low bass and midrange definition.

If a rug or coats is making a difference that means you have slap echo which must be addressed to make the room sound good. 

We use throw pillows behind the speakers to absorb slap echo.

It will really depend on what you are trying to accheive you may need to add a subwoofer to balance out the low bass here I would look at a subwoofer with room equilization that is either automatic or controllable. 

Also add a set of Isoacoustics footers which will make a huge difference in both the definition of the system and the soundstage. 

Hope this helps.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ