Vandersteen 3A Sig vs. Von Schweikert VR4 Jr.

Ok, I've whittled my list down to the above. However, I have not had a chance to listen to either of these yet (dealers are scarce in my area.) I value the folks' opinions on this site very much and would like some regarding which speaker they'd recommend. I have Marantz SA8260 SACD and PM7200 Integrated. I listen to primarily Jazz and other acoustic music. Thanx in advance.
Not being a fan of Vandersteens, I would opt for the VR4 Jrs. However, if you like your music on the warm, laid back side of reality, the 3As might be for you. I find Vandersteens to be non-offensive and easy to listen but hardly transparent or resolving. A matter of taste I suppose, but the VS would be my choice.

Its hard to beat the sound of the VR4JRS -they do so much with their size -excellent on audio and video -one of the best buys in their class and above
Depends what you're looking for, and where you're headed with your audio system. Vandies are almost universally recognized as great speakers, but aren't the best for heavy metal, etc. They require lots of power, sound best when bi-amped with either high output tube amps or solid state with perhaps a tube pre-amp. Form follows function with Vandies, as they are not breathtakingly beautiful but image like electrostatics when properly set up. I think we're seeing many for sale now that the Quattro is being introduced, so it should be a buyers market. The VR4jr is beautiful to behold and more efficient. I understand that they image better with tube amps than with solid state. With Sim Audio gear, they were slightly boxey, a little sibilant, ever so slightly unresolving at lower volumes, but they rocked on rock music. Note that Vandies are time and phase coherent, and VR4jr's are... well you read the literature and tell me. Neither one would be my first choice, because I can't afford a pair of megawatt tube amps, and I want better imaging than VR4jr.
I will mention that to my ears the Vandersteens are closer to reality than most speakers - including those mentioned here. Obviously that is personal. Point is, I cannot answer it for you, nor can anyone else. Trust YOUR ears.
I don't know that the VR-4 jr's would be my first choice in the $4K price range either but, they would certainly be among the handful of contenders at that price range and, they image beautifully. Like all speakers, set up is important. I heard them in a 9' triange with liberal room treatments and there was never an indication of muisc coming directly from either speaker. They were very holographic with stable and reasonably precise imaging. Having said that, the image will come forward a couple feet or, drop back several feet from the plane of the speakers. Personally, I prefer the image to come forward enough to be in your lap or, drop well behind the speaker plane according to the recorded media.

I listened to them with the Bel Canto evo series amplifier and preamp. The sound was impressive.
Seriously consider a planar speaker. The Eminent Technology LFT-VIIIa or Magnepan MG-1.6 would provide excellent sound at a much lower cost than either the Vandy or VS. A planar must be placed 3-4' from the rear wall, isn't small, and won't blow down walls, but does sound wonderful. Imaging is superb with a natural "musicians in the room" sound that box speakers can't really replicate. Get the dedicated aftermarket stands to maximize speaker performance (Sound Anchor for the ET and Mye Sound for the Maggie). More power may be required than the Marantz provides if the room is large, but try it first. Both are very benign resistive loads. Don't be afraid to spend less than planned, that is a mistake far too many audiophiles make. I own both of these planar speakers and have heard the others in good listening situations. I would't trade, even if they did cost the same. Good luck!
I haven't heard the Vandy 3A Sigs., but I had the 2Ce Sigs. and they are no match for the VRjr, which trounce all over the Vandys. I find it hard to believe anyone would find the VRjr lacking in the imaging department. They are more transparent and holographic than 90% of the speakers I have heard at their price point and up to double the price.
If VR-4JR’s are not set-up right, they will not produce the best imaging... Due to my poor room layout it took me 2 months to position them right. I’m now rewarded not only by excellent imaging but also a 3-dimontional soundstage.
"I haven't heard the Vandy 3A Sigs., but I had the 2Ce Sigs. and they are no match for the VRjr, which trounce all over the Vandys"

But you "have not heard the 3A Sigs", so how will they "tounce over the Vandys"? Are you saying they will trounce the 2Ce Sigs? If so, your comparing a $1500/pr speaker to a $4000/pr speaker. As I have not heard the 2Ce's, (I bought a pair of 3A Sigs in November - after I had listened to the VR 4jr and the 3A Sig - which by a wide margin, I prefered the 3A Sig) can't comment on a comparision, but I'd be hard pressed to believe "trounce" is a word that would fit here.

"if you like your music on the warm, laid back side of reality, the 3As might be for you. I find Vandersteens to be non-offensive and easy to listen but hardly transparent or resolving"

To me, this is far from an accurate statement. Ozzy has an amazing system, but I find my 3A sig/Rouge 99 Mag/Rega P5/SimAudio Equionox/Parasound 2205 set up to be very transparent and resolving. Music is conveyed in an emotional manner, very very realistic!
For what it's worth, one of my best audiophile friends is a Von schweikert dealer. They seem to be selling well. What does he have at home? Vandersteen's, I asked him about coming by to give the VR 4jrs a run through and he told me not to bother. He is more than happy to sell the heck out of them but, was quick to tell me that they couldn't hold up to a side by side comparison to the Vandersteen line.
Agaffer, your dealer buddy sounds like a few dealers I've come across who prefer to discuss their personal preferences/biases with customers rather than allow their customers to draw their own conclusions. It would have been refreshing to read that your friend had invited you over to listen to the VR4Jr speakers and then asked you for your opinion of them. This is one of my pet peeves with dealers, and a primary reason I stay clear of their shops.
I DID listen to the VR4 Jr and Aggaffer's "dealer buddy" Vandersteens, and was able to easily draw my own conclusion on the two - I bought the Vandersteen's! The Vandersteen's are simply a more musical speaker, allowing me to focus on the music not the speakers.

The VR4jr were very nice, but so were the Totem's we spent some time with. In both cases, I was hard pressed to hear huge differences between these and the Paradigms I was looking to replace (grant it the Paradigms were not in the same room/listening session. Having lived with them for 10 years I knew what they sounded like).

I also was not overly impressed by the build quality on the VR4 Jr. One, they are to short and thin (to my eyes/taste), and two, the high gloss finish although pretty, seemed to mask some lower production value that the cabinets displayed.

Now most seem to think the 3A Sigs are fuggly, but I love the look, and so does my wife (she expressed no horror as the dealer "rolled them" into the family room, and actually to the dealer she liked them immediately!
Yes, my comparison was to the 2Ce Sig, and in this sense, unfair. However, I was basing this on the many, many comments from Vandy owners and Vandy dealers who have said the 3A was quite similar to the 2Ce, with better bass, a more authoritative sound, and more detail. Still, the same house sound, which to my ears, is lacking in a number of areas such as transparency, unraveling of complex musical threads, top to bottom coherency of sound.
I have to respectfully disagree with Agaffer and Dseid on this one.
I have auditioned both the Von Schweikert VR-4JR and the Vandersteen 3a Signatures in my home, with my system, and the JR's were superior in almost every aspect sonically to the 3A Sigs.,IMHO.
The VR-4JR's were more open, dynamic, transparent, focused, and simply more "alive" than the Vandersteens.
The bass was also more extended and powerful on the JR's [using the lead-shot].
The Vandersteens sounded a tad too warm, polite, and laid-back for me.
If I wasn't a die hard planar and ribbon speaker lover, I would enthusiastically purchase the Von Schweikert VR-4JR's without hesitation or second thought!
Audio girl - thanks. Your conclusion on the Vandersteen's seems to be the one I most often read. The 3ASig's won't knock you out right away, but over time (not so much break in), the "dynamic, tranparent, focused, and alive" qualities really are present. Because of this, and I know I hear these in my system, I purchased the Vandy's!

VMPS ribbon monitors may be the best choice. The speed and naturalism with acoustic instruments must be heard to be believed. It's a serious contender in your price category and at least two reviewers have bought the speakers they reviewed. Also Best of High end at CES for technology and value. The judges saying the 4600.00 retail speakers sounding as good as 20,000 dollar speakers they heard.
I suspect Selah Audio arrays are also a super bargain. Both of these are world class companies and build speakers that are Outstanding for the money. Ask Audio_girl how planars are with acoustic music. The Magneplanars are a great speaker if your listening room can accomodate them. Also the VMPS speakers use planar drivers. I would do as much research as I could before I pulled the trigger. Maybe try requesting for people in your area to let you audition their speakers on audioasylum, and here. List what you're interested in after you do alot more research. This could give you a better idea of what they sound like. I had Vandersteen's and they are easily beaten for the dollar these days imho. Best of luck to you.
I completely forgot about the VMPS RM40 and RM30!
I would LOVE to hear these!
I have never had the opportunity to audition any of the VMPS speakers, but I have heard many good things about them.
I have a feeling that I might even like them better than the Von Schweikert VR-4JR's.
Yes, ribbons and planars sound EXTREMELY natural and detailed on acoustic instruments and voices. I love their easy openness, effortless detail, utter transparency, top-end extension, and sheer speed!
Best of luck on your search!

while there's nothing wrong with recommending another speaker, i believe it is important for you that you disclose you are VMPS dealer. also, the thread originator was SPECIFICALLY asking about the Vandy 3A Sig and VSA VR4Jr because he had whittled his list down to these. he was not asking for general speaker recommendations...

i've heard the 4 Jrs in my room and the 3A Sigs in someone else's system. both sound amazing when driven by great front ends! excellent coherency, detail, soundstage and presence from both. bass is a bit more extended w/ the 4 Jrs. you can't go wrong w/ either. while i've grown partial to listening to 1st order speakers, the 4 jrs really don't let on their 4th order roots...

pick your poison...:-)
"I had Vandersteen's and they are easily beaten for the dollar these days imho" -- and your a VPMS dealer, nice!

At $3500 the 3A Sigs compete and hold up very nicely to the competion. To each his own, I listened to the VMPS, the 4Jr, the Dali Helecon 400, the Joseph Audio RM25 and each was plesent and had their strong points. Musically, however, none bested the 3A Sigs. With all the others, the speakers never disappeared, leaving just the music like the Vandy's did. All were set up in very good environments, with equipment that probably betters mine.
I auditioned several diferent brands recently when I was choosing.I went to a dealer who really was pushing the Linn's.While I was waiting for him to change to a different setup, he put me in a room with the Vandersteens.They were the only speakers that sounded more than just a speaker to me.I was looking for a speaker with a little more cosmetic style to it also.I listened to the Von Schwiekerts a few days later and was not terribly impressed.I even listened to the much more expensive db-99.I went back and listened to the B&W's I had also auditioned(803,802)I really wanted one of the other speakers to really stand out,as I was not impressed with the Vandersteen look.I had originally ruled them out because of what I saw online.But the sound just surpased anything else except the Gallos Ref III, which I purchased for another room.I ended up with the 3a's and a complete 7.2 system.
So many criticisms of the Von Schweikerts, I have to say something. The VRjr is so revealing, it revealed blatant distortion in tube amplifiers that my B&W 802's never revealed. This shocked the heck out of me. I hear details in recordings never heard before. I hear complex musical threads unraveled so I can hear every element.

Listening to speakers in stereo stores often brings disappointing and misleading results. Unfortunately, many stores have dreadful setups where nearly everything sounds awful. There are dealers, as well as audiophiles, who lack the discernment and discrimination to know what truly musical sound is.

As far as speakers disappearing, the VRjr has done this more than any speakers I have had or listened to. The transparency and see-through quality was shocking, even when I first hooked them up cold, with no break-in. They are truly serving as a reference quality device to zero in on the character of every component in my system. I never heard such differences in power cords on every component in my system as I do with these speakers.

Albert Von Schweikert is a speaker design genius, and has an impeccable engineering background and credentials. He has designed speakers for other major companies, including the famed Eggleston Andra. I have no connection with Von S., I'm just a happy VS owner.
It’s very sad how so many dealers dump as many speakers that are pushed against the wall and expect us to learn about the true qualities of a particular speaker. To qualify my point further, I was in a store looking at different amps and have stumbled across a McIntosh Amp/Von Schweikert VR-4jr demo. I was very disappointed with this set-up.

VR-4jr’s were not loaded with lead and didn’t have the spikes. One of the speaker’s was berried in the corner of a room and practically blocked by the other demo speaker. The M/T module was not sited properly almost falling-off of the bass enclosure. The other speaker was pushed against the wall next to the open door. A single run of MIT cables were incorrectly plugged-in into the bass input of the woofer module and the interlink cable was used for attaching M/T to this woofer module.

As cheap as my electronics is, my VR-4jr’s sound 100 times better simply because I’ve followed the instructions provided to me in the manual. Why should we pay extra dollars to so-called dealers if they don’t even understand how to properly set-up audio systems?

Obviously everyone has a taste for a particular sound, as far as my taste goes the VR-4jr’s sound incredible if properly set-up.

Best regards,
Don't forget about Meadowlark Ospreys, which are an easy and tube-friendly load. Tubes are the way to go for jazz and acoustical music, if your room allows for proper set-up. Meadowlarks are imaging champs, too.
I am as small a dealer as is possible, I sell nothing else and just started a couple of days ago. If you check my posts you'll see I've posted recommendations of VMPS speakers, along with many others for a very long time. It's out of my house and any income is pure frosting. I make the minimum and haven't even sold but one pair. I stand by my recommendation that the VMPS soundly thrash Vandersteen's especially for what this person is wanting. It's no contest. Magnapan 3.6's will also do it. For acoustic music go listen to some planars and once you do you'll find the speed and naturalness make cone drivers, at least that I've heard, sound wanting. It's NOT subtle. I will disclose I am a dealer in the future but like I said I owned the Vandersteens. I also have a friend who owned the Vandersteens sold them to buy some VMPS speakers. That said the Vandersteens can do well on some music at low levels but omit so much of the music as to be useful only for quartets and background music imo. That's my opinion only, I don't believe any speaker is for everybody but that people should listen to as many as they can before they buy anything.
"I stand by my recommendation that the VMPS soundly thrash Vandersteen's especially for what this person is wanting. It's no contest"

Well then I must be an idiot then cause what I hear and FEEL from the 3A Sigs, especially listening to jazz and acoustic music (a very large portion of my listening time)is nothing short of amazing! I'm not alone in this regard though, as many of my friends and even my wife are drawn in by the Vandersteen's.

"That said the Vandersteens can do well on some music at low levels but omit so much of the music as to be useful only for quartets and background music imo"

What a load of horse pucky! Omit what, they don't omit anything. Look at the graphs, listen to them. What possibly are they omitting. I must simply be an idiot and not know what I'm supposed to hear then. What confuses me though are the "chills" I get when say Eva Cassidy is singing Autumn Leaves off Songbird, or Ray Brown's Solar Energy has me glued to my chair for over an hour, or Amiee Mann's Lost in Space, or Jerry Garcia/David Grisman' Shady Road, or any jazz record from the Three Blind Mice label.........

Vandersteen's are alot like Volkswagon's (I drive two of them), the Oakland Raiders (my passion since age 7), the Grateful Dead (been a "Head" since age 15 - and the live Dead music through the Vandersteen's is great, great, stuff), and my new Apple Ibook - you either love them or hate them. With all of the above, there is a very passionate group who love them, and an equally passionate group who hate em!
I vote 3A.
Buy VMPS if you want to install a new woofer, new tweeters, new caps, change the crossover, delete a toggle switch, add lambs wool, brace the cabinets, etc., and do whatever else is added on a weekly basis to "improve" the sound. It's like the Michael Jackson of speakers it's under the knife so much. Oh- but this is what makes the speaker so special- I forgot! Have your soldering iron handy. Buy Vandersteen if you want to sit back and listen to music!
Buy Vandersteen if you want to sit back and listen to music

So true!
Just be sure you guys never have a shootout between the VMPS's and the Vandersteen's as it's no contest any way you want to listen to it. I like the Vandersteen's, don't get me wrong, but they have met their match by no small margin by a number of other companies speakers in their price range. Remember too that Richard Vandersteen's advertising budget per month is what some companies gross sales are too. Who's paying for that?
I USED to own VMPS- you're right it's no contest. Cdw57 also forgot to mention the endless fun with the putty and the pots.
Fsarc: Why would it be endless fun with putty and pots? If you hear well you can just set them up and forget it. Any speaker takes significant time to set up properly and VMPS speakers are probably the most difficult to do right and are not for beginners. The reward as many people have found out is some of the most accurate sound available. Richard Vandersteen also feels pots are a good idea as do I and makes me wonder why so many manufacturers leave them out considering the ambiguity of room acoustics. As a matter of fact Vandersteen set up is basically the same minus the mass loading of the woofer.
I think you guys took my stand on the Vandersteen's wrong. As I stated I do really like them and have recommended them. The guy I work for now owns my Vandersteens so I get to hear them from time to time. They are not as dynamic as many other speakers and will not convey a live performance as well to me. The 5A's I suspect are in another ball park but so is their price. My bottom line feeling though as there is no one speaker that fits all people's tastes and requirements. The Vandersteen's will not play loud without compressing. They are not as accurate as planars or electrostatics in my opinion. All the Maggie, Quad, Martin Logan, ESL, Soundlab and VMPS owners will agree I believe. You're trying to defy the laws of physics if you think a cone can keep up with a planar/electrostatic driver. In the bass is the only place. Then again there's alot of people who don't like planars. To each their own.
"They are not as dynamic as many other speakers and will not convey a live performance as well to me".

Fair enough as you added "to me". While I disagree, especially when you add "The Vandersteen's will not play loud without compressing", we are all entitled to our likes/dislikes. I know that I've played my 3A Sig's very loud with nothing but a big smile on my face! I heard nothing "compressed" at all.

"All the Maggie, Quad, Martin Logan, ESL, Soundlab and VMPS owners will agree" - and I'd bet "all" 5A owners, and a lot of 3A Sig (with subs added to keep cost comparable) would not agree, and not cause they don't like these others/planers - its cause they love their Vandersteens!
Thanx everyone. I'm going with the VR4Jrs.
Richard Vandersteen's advertising budget per month is what some companies gross sales are too. Who's paying for that?

You are kidding, right? Richard Vandersteen's advertising is about as low-budget as you can get for a company of that size. If another company has gross sales equal to Vandersteen's advertising budget, I would fear for that company's well being.
I think a major point is being missed. The original post stated, "I listen to primarily Jazz and other acoustic music." Is there anybody who really thinks that the vr4jr's are going to be better at that?
Rock, yes. Large scale Classical, maybe. Hip Hop, definitely. Jazz and acoustic - no way. The Vandersteens are what you would be happier with.
Opalchip is dead on accurate with his comments. On jazz and acoustic music, the 3A Sigs absolutly shine. In fact there was no comparision agaist the vr4jr - they just did not impress me at all.
Well, I will add in my two cents and say that while I have not heard the VR4jr, I own their big brother and feel it does quite well with jazz (which is what I primarily listen two). It just requires that you mate the speakers with an appropriate amp that will flavor them to your liking.
Hasn't the original poster of the question stated that he's (or she's) made a decision to go with the VR4Jr? Why the continuing debate?
re: Hasn't the original poster... Because it's never too soon to start thinking about your NEXT speaker purchase!
One thing that always strikes me about Vandersteen 3's and 2's is how you must be right in the middle of the sweet spot for them to sound good. Move just a few feet and they loose something. Well not just something, but they loose everything! They seem a bit like planar speakers in that way. But they are very good if your listening will be in that prime seat. I would have no trouble buying them (the 3A's) if that is your typical listening position (and I own the Jr's).

Just my 2 cents.
"One thing that always strikes me about Vandersteen 3's and 2's is how you must be right in the middle of the sweet spot for them to sound good. Move just a few feet and they loose something. Well not just something, but they loose everything"

In my experience, nothing could be farther from the truth. My 3A Sigs sound "right" wherever I'm sitting, and from the "sweet spot", just icing on the cake.

As I've invested a lot of $$ in my sytem, I will say I listen from the sweet spot a lot though.

Tvad is correct to. He has made up his mind on the jr's and I'm sure he will be very happy with his purchase.
As a point of clarification, I do listen primarily to Jazz but that includes lots of electric jazz and big band AND some rock. So, I was looking for a more well rounded speaker. I thought the VR4jrs were just that.
I am resurrecting this old thread because it is an interesting subject to me. I am a Vandersteen 3A Signature owner and was previously an owner of the Von Schweikert VR-5
and am a fan of the Von Schweikert VR-4 Jr, which I have heard on two hi-fi show occasions. I would think that anyone who downgrades the 3A Signature may be going on Vandersteen's reputation for laid-back sound rather than time spending time listening in a totally optimized setup. Another thing to remember about the Signature is that, in my opinion, it is extremely difficult to place in order to get the most out of them. The instructions which come with the speaker didn't make them come alive in my room. It turned out to be a process of trial and error. A couple of inches in the wrong direction and you will get sound which is not "alive", is overly-warm and just incomplete. It took me months of repositioning before I was satisfied and I doubt that few people would take the time and effort to know how good these speakers can sound. Comparing the Vandersteen's with the VR-5's, the Vandy's unquestionably went down deeper than the Von Schweikert's, although the Von Schweikerts had a very solid, taut, punchy mid-bass and considerable bass depth considering their size; the Vandersteen's had a deeper, more relaxed and rounder bass which I preferred for my listening taste, but you may not. I know this because I owned both speakers at the same time. The midrange of the VR-5's was more forward and I would say slightly more transparent than the Vandersteen's, but the difference was closer than you might think, again because people don't take the considerable effort to set up the Vandersteens properly. The midrange vocal image on the Von Schweikert's was outstanding. On recordings where this quality was enhanced, the vocals were extremely transparent.

I think the VR-4JR is a better speaker than the VR-5, at least to my ears. I have heard them at the last two New York audio shows, once with a very expensive VAC tube amp and once with the DK Designs integrated hybrid. At the last show, the VR-4JR was in at least 3 rooms and sounded somewhat different in all of them, which should suggest that amplifier, preamp, source and cable matching will still play a huge part in what you will hear. Under the best listening situations, these speakers were outstanding: Absolutely outstanding dynamics, outstanding imaging and outstanding soundstaging, the same transparence as the VR-5's had, a generally smooth sound, although I have some concern about harshness in the upper mid region, which was exhibited on some occasions and not others, even in the same room. The VR-4 Jrs had a very extended low end, although I am not sure they do absolutely full justice to organ pedal tones, they may come very close and I believe that they do come closer to achieving the bass performance of the Vandy's than did the VR-5's. Both speakers, to my ears, have a very pure treble region. Overall, based on my listening experience, I would expect the VR-4Jr to be a little more forward and transparent in the midrange, a little more dynamic overall, to have at least excellent bass, a little more taut and "thuddy" than the Vandersteen, if perhaps not quite as deep. I believe that I would need to compare the two speakers in an A/B situation to know for sure which had the best bass depth as well which had the best overall bass performance. My only concern is some potential upper-midrange brightness, which I have heard, but maybe due to program material or associated equipment.

There are so many unknowns when comparing two pieces of equipment. It is hard to say which one is better. All I can say is that in my opinion, they are worthy competitors to one another. I am sure that in any A/B session, like most other products, they will sound significantly different. The question of whether each has been optimized to allow it to sound its best always arises, but it is only the individual listener who can add the pluses and subtract the minuses in proportion to how these pluses and minuses match his individual listening tastes in order to say which speaker is better.
Classic case of system dependent results, and argument which will not be resolved unless tested in own listening environment.
Both speakers seem to garnish high praise. I've had plenty of experience with Vandersteen 2CE's. Have moved on to imho much superior product - Chapman Audio T-7's.
Those interested in this comparison of speakers should call Staurt Chapman Jones at 206-463-3008; very pleasant man who is fanatical about hand building the best possible speakers matched to exacting tolerances. Exceptional cost to performance ratio, beyond Vandersteen, in my experience. You won't find much on the net about them; Stuart can send info to you. I believe, one of best "hidden gems" in speakers.
Stuart makes the T-77, which should compete very favorably with either Vandys or VonS.

Good choice! You will be happy. I'm glad you were able to see through the false ridicule.


Just watch your back with your "buddy" dealer. He may sell you a line or maybe he already has. Maybe he wanted to dump the Vandersteens on you and was lying about it. It sounds like he does that with his other customers, so he's probably doing it with you. Where is he at. I'll make sure to avoid him/her.

Just watch your back with your "buddy" dealer. He may sell you a line or maybe he already has. Maybe he wanted to dump the Vandersteens on you and was lying about it. It sounds like he does that with his other customers, so he's probably doing it with you. Where is he at. I'll make sure to avoid him/her"

My original text warrants some correction based on your interpretation. I meant to state I know Agaffers dealer buddy (Agaffer had posted just after me), and his place is where i listened to the VR 4Jr. and his Vandersteen 5A's (not to compare though, just for fun). This dealer did NOT try and steer me either way, and was not even a dealer for the 3A Sigs.

What he was is a great guy who instead of "steering" me to the VR 4JR - which he did sell, set me up with a Vandersteen dealer he knew the same afternnon for a listening session.

So no, he did not "want to dump the Vandersteens on you and was lying about it. It sounds like he does that with his other customers, so he's probably doing it with you", but instead lost a sale on a product he carried so that I would make a purchase I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH!! Is this not the BEST kind of dealer? Would you like his number now??

Thanks for clearing that up. I have a great dealer in the bay area - he carries what he likes not stuff he doesn't beleive in. He doesn't sell brands that he wouldn't recommend when there is something better for the price out there. Why doesn't your dealer try to carry what he likes?