Valve phono stage

I like tubes. More musical. Have a BAT VKP 10SE with Supercaps and it rocks. 

@lewm  - is the Aesthetix Io balanced - sorry for late answer, I only saw your question now. Quote from the manual p 8:
"The phono stage contains three main amplification sections and an output buffer section. The first section is a high gain, low noise, zero feedback single ended amplifier composed of two low-noise 12AX7 vacuum tubes. This then feeds a high gain, low noise differential amplifier (two 12AX7 vacuum tubes) which amplifies the signal and produces a complementary minus phase signal. Thus, the unit is balanced from the second amplification section through the output. The signal is then applied to the third amplification section which is nearly identical to the second. It also contains two 12AX7 vacuum tubes. The filter is next in the signal path, a purely passive design with the highest grade capacitors and non-inductive wirewound resistors throughout. Lastly, the signal is buffered and sent to the output jacks in balanced form." So well, it is mostly balanced but not fully, since the first gain stage is single ended. Whatever the case it sounds great. I know Raul doesn't like tubes in phono stages and I recognize the problems, but to my ears, this is the best choice.

Have a BAT VKP10 SE. My cart is 1.7 mv and while it occasionally sends some noise through at high volumes it really lays down the lumber. Authoritative bass and sweet to boot. Recently, (last night} ran in some Amperex PQ White label 6922s and the noise floor really dropped. Balanced all the way. Can you tell I like it?
Not to denigrate single ended stuff because it can be really great but if you're digging for low noise balanced does have some advantages. I got some good advice as the system was being assembled and went balanced. Good luck.

And it was a rhea signature 

@infection regarding the shootout with the aesthetix, zesto and Herron speakers were tannoy yorkminsters amps were Sophia 845-05 preamp was vacuum state. 
Aesthitix was darker without as much detail
zesto was decent but a back row presentation 
herron was just good music with proper staging

cabling was a mix of xlo cardas and Neotec
aesthetix had a Jim mcshane premuim tube set which is supposed to be the best you can do with those. 
I would rate them 
Herron 9.5
zesto 8.5
aesthetix 7

Allnic H1201 is probably very good.  This is based only on reading, but I have seen back and forth discussions of H1201 vs Herron VTPH2, suggesting that the two are in the same league.
Chakster, Good that you found a reputable seller from which to purchase your rare TFKs. 

@lewm 

Apparently we agree on that, and we agree that REAL ECC801s/802s/803s are very rare and very valuable in the crazy tube collector market. If yours are real, good for you. I do have some real Telefunken ECC83/12AX7s, and I only know they are real because I bought them in the 70s, from a reputable source, before this craziness began and before the Chinese and Eastern Europeans started making bogus TFKs and Amperex and etc tubes.  

I could not buy mine in the 70s, i was born in the 70s, but i bought mine from Tube Museum NYC. They are real with diamond etc. Those guys are pretty serious about tubes. I have also purchased a matched quad of Telefunken military E84L (EL84). Original boxes etc. I was working in a printing business, i can recognize an old prints (and old factory boxes).

You are right that tube collectors market is crazy, but it is not my problem anymore and i am happy about it.  

BAT

@infection I mentioned earlier about how you can't just buy tubes off the shelf and expect them to work in a high performance circuit.
Lew's advice is good- those tubes are in there for a reason. This isn't saying that you can't do better- you can, just expect that when you buy a hot-shot tube be it boutique or NOS, that it may not be as quiet or low microphonics as you expected and you may have to return it and try again.

We buy tubes 100 at a time, so we have more examples to go through to find the tubes in the box that sound right. I'm sure that's what Keith is doing too.

Chakster, It seems you repeated back to me exactly what I said to you; an ECC801 is not likely also to bear the stamp "12AT7WA".  Apparently we agree on that, and we agree that REAL ECC801s/802s/803s are very rare and very valuable in the crazy tube collector market.  If yours are real, good for you.  I do have some real Telefunken ECC83/12AX7s, and I only know they are real because I bought them in the 70s, from a reputable source, before this craziness began and before the Chinese and Eastern Europeans started making bogus TFKs and Amperex and etc tubes.  And they do sound great, although I only own one piece of gear that uses 12AX7s, a vintage Quicksilver full function phono preamplifier (highly recommended and an amazing bargain, if you can find one for under $1200) which I use for back-up to my Steelhead, on my basement system.  Can't use it on my upstairs system, which is all balanced/Atma-sphere and anyway has no 12AX7s in circuit.

Infection, If you choose to purchase the Herron, I strongly advise you to run it with the tubes that Keith Herron has chosen for it.  If you cannot resist the business of tube rolling, at least wait a year or so until you have a real idea of the sound of your Herron, so you'll know if substitute tubes make a favorable difference or not.  In purchasing the Herron, you would be paying a rather high price for a conventional single-ended design; the justification for that is you are paying for the undeniable expertise of Keith Herron in the bargain.  I would guess he has been very careful in selecting what tubes sound best in his circuit.

So which valves would be a suitable & significant upgrade from the stock ones in the Herron?

ECC 801s is the military grade Telefunken tube from Europe, one of the best ever made, very expensive. 801s is the same class as the ecc81, but the highest grade by Telefunken (long life, low microphonic).

12AT7 WA is Silvanya Gold Brand from the USA with gold pins, it’s a bargain, great tube

Another favorite of mine was Matsushita pinched tails 12at7WA - very rare. Mullard made tube factory for Matsushita in Japan as far as i know.

None of the mentioned above were made by Philips

12AT7 (12AT7WA) = ECC81 (ECC801s)

I have to wonder about the tubes you mention, specifically the ECC 801/12AT7 WA. Because WA is a suffix that was used I think by Phillips, and Phillips never made any ECC 801’s. At least so far as I know. Your tubes might legitimately be ECC 81s.  Real ECC 801, 802‘s, 803‘s and similar became very valuable in the last 20 years. The “0” in the 3 digit number indicates very low noise, tested by the factory.Therefore I would be skeptical about what it says on the box or on the tube, unless you know for sure the provenance of the tube. I have some Telefunken 12 AX7‘s and some Amperex bugle boy tubes that I bought back in the early 1970s. That’s the only reason  I feel sure they are for real. 

Still have some amazing NOS tubes left, such as ECC801 / 12AT7 WA, not sure is there is any valve phono stage with this type of tubes.

We use 12AT7s in all our phono sections. Not as much gain as a 12AX7, but a lot more bandwidth.

Purist is pretty nice- not sure it they fit the budget.

@lewm I can not buy and try any phono stage over $1k that's for sure. Still have some amazing NOS tubes left, such as ECC801 / 12AT7 WA, not sure is there is any valve phono stage with this type of tubes. Some NOS Telefunken tubes cost more than phono stage itself (imo).  

And you don’t name what tube amplifiers you’ve played with either.

Described my ex tube gear after this comment. 

If I go all out Herron system, as I mentioned, it would mean selling all my balanced cables. 
Can any of you suggest great single ended cables up to about  $700?

I'm looking at AntiCables...

Thanks 
Rich

 Dear Chakster, there’s no reason for you to pay any attention to me, but it does seem that you are missing my point. So now you’ve described the particular tube amplifier that you found to be less good sounding then your 1st W amplifier. That proves nothing in general about tubes Vs solid state. That is my point. 

For all I know, you may end up preferring a solid-state phono stage to any tube phono stage that you can lay your hands on. That remains to be seen. But I do think you should give it a try.

Here is another one: http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZP3.htm

as a disadvantages i can add:
Tube Microphonics, Tube Noise, Tube Rolling effect (you change the tube and you change the sound). The price for each good tube, the tube estimate hrs and short life of the tube (not good for very expensive nos).  

This statement is quite true, but I should point out that in any high performance audio equipment, whether tube or solid state, the devices used have to be hand picked- you can't expect to just buy them off the shelf and have them work.
Some years back we experimented with semiconductors at the input of our MP-3 preamp. What we found was that regardless of the MOSFETs we tried, we had to hand pick them and out of 100 units, we found only about 7 that were quiet enough for use. In that regard we had an easier time hand-picking the tubes!

MM cartridges are of course a different animal as loading affects them directly, otherwise they can ring and cause distortion. The loading is usually a bit more complex- did you read the comments Jim made about them in the article I linked?

How many great tube phono stages available for less than $1k , not for $3k? Just curious.  

At least two that I know of- but that IMO is a loaded question. In the preamp I'm thinking of the phono section causes the preamp to cost about $400 more that it does as a line stage. In another example the phono section raises the cost of the preamp by about $800.00; so I think the answer is probably a lot like 'a bunch'.

@atmasphere thanks for pointing the facts

as a disadvantages i can add:
Tube Microphonics, Tube Noise, Tube Rolling effect (you change the tube and you change the sound). The price for each good tube, the tube estimate hrs and short life of the tube (not good for very expensive nos).  

In general tube rollings is like cartridge loadings, people looking for "the right sounding" tubes expecting more bass or more lush etc and so on. 

manufacturers recommends 47-100kOhm sometimes 30-50kOhm for their MM cartridges. This is the reason i like MM phono stages with rca plugs (load resistors), alternate loading will change the sound if needed (smoother or brighter). 

Ok, so in your opinion: "smoother sound, less ticks and pops , reduced generation of higher ordered harmonics, good overload margins and good resistance to RFI (semiconductors more easily rectify Radio Frequency signals since they have diodes built into their structures)".

How many great tube phono stages available for less than $1k , not for $3k? Just curious.      

Any tube fan can explain me what is the advantages of the tube phono stage compared to the great SS design?

It can be explained. Whether you accept the truth of the matter is a different thing altogether.
The primary advantage of a tube phono section is reduced generation of higher ordered harmonics. This is why tube phono sections tend to sound smoother than solid state.
As I pointed out earlier on this thread, another advantage is that it is much easier to design a tube phono section that has good overload margins and good resistance to RFI (semiconductors more easily rectify Radio Frequency signals since they have diodes built into their structures). The advantage of this is less ticks and pops during playback. This phenomena is not well-known; nearly all of the phono preamps in Japanese amps and receivers on the 1970s clear though the 1990s were not good in this department and so made a lot more ticks and pops than are actually on the LP surface. So an entire generation of audiophiles grew up thinking that ticks and pops are endemic to the media. In fact such is not the case!
We should not ignore the 'cartridge loading' issue, which is related to this latter point. Cartridges need to be loaded with many phono sections, not because it helps the cartridge in any way, but because the inductance of the cartridge combined with the capacitance of the tone arm cable creates an ultrasonic/ RF resonance that is driven into excitation by the energy of the cartridge. This resonance can be a good 30-35 db more powerful than the signal from the cartridge (IOW over 1000 times more powerful) and many phono sections (in particular solid state) really don't like the RFI thus presented at their inputs and so don't sound right. This is why overload margin is so important- the overload caused by this resonance is where many ticks and pops originate.
Now if you have to load the cartridge to get it to sound right, what happens is the energy from the cartridge has to drive that load since it is a direct shunt to the cartridge signal. The result is that the mechanism of the cartridge becomes stiffer and less able to track, especially at higher frequencies. This is very similar to how an amplifier damps a loudspeaker cone and is easy to demonstrate. If you doubt me on this, take a raw loudspeaker and tap its diaphragm, then short its terminals and do it again. You will see that the speaker got a **lot** stiffer- the same thing happens with a cartridge, as the operating principle is the same.

So the ability of the phono section to operate correctly with the stock 47K load is pretty important- when you load the cartridge at significantly lower impedances, like 100 ohms, you are robbing the cartridge of its last bit of performance!
If you think I'm making this stuff up, talk to JCarr of Lyra, he has written extensively on this topic. He is by no means the only one, here is a helpful article from Jim Hagerman on the topic (which does the math on cartridge resonance):
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

In a nutshell, the result is that a good tube phono section will often be less irritating (smoother sound, less ticks and pops) than a good solid state phono section and for the reasons stated, can have greater resolution too (extracting more detail from the LP).

@lewm You’re right that phono stage is not the amp, i have no experience with tube phono stages yet and that’s why i am asking why valve is better than no valve? For practical reason i know it’s not better at all.

My ex tube amp was WLM Minueta integrated (made by Trafomatic Audio for them), it’s a modern push-pull class A tube amp that i’ve been using with the best NOS tubes from the 60s/70s era. NOS tubes are much better that new tubes of that class, no questions. Mr. Srajan Ebaen reviewed WLM on 6moons with Zu Audio speakers. Here is a picture of my rack with this amp and below there is First Watt B1 preamp and WLM Phonata phono stage that i am still using. The power amp is First Watt F2J barely seen on that picture. 

From the review: " The mini in Minueta refers to the smaller chassis as well as the tiny output tube called 6BQ5 or EL84. The quartet of output glass here is good for 14wpc in Ultralinear, 5wpc in triode - and class A push-pull in either case. Power wise, it positions the Minueta between single-ended 2A3 and 300B amps on the low side, between 300B and 6C33C SETs on the high. In popular hifi opinion, the EL84 doesn’t rank as highly as direct-heated triodes and the beefier pentodes like EL34s, 6550s and 5881s. Yet true valve connoisseurs shopping with their ears and not through the nose know how sonically advanced the Minueta’s choice could really be. "

Chakster, perhaps your problem is that you have been into an NOS vintage tube equipment and maybe not into the best modern tube equipment. And for sure another problem is that you are conflating phono stages with amplifiers. In my opinion, the output transformer of a classic tube amplifier is the weak link in the chain. Nearly all of the qualities of such amplifiers that are denigrated by those who prefer solid state (bass definition, warm coloration, perceived treble rolloff, etc) stem from the use of a coupling transformer at the interface between the output stage of the amplifier and speaker. But that has absolutely no bearing on the consideration of vacuum tubes versus solid-state when it comes to phono stages. In that case of course there typically is no coupling transformer. Huge swings of energy are not required. It’s a completely different ballgame, and the goals of a quality design are completely different mostly because a phono stage has to impose RIAA correction on the signal and because the signal is very tiny in terms of voltage swing. Most likely you know all this, so I wonder why you couch your argument against tubes based on your experience with power amplifiers. And you don’t name what tube amplifiers you’ve played with either.

I did a head to head comparison with the Herron, the aesthetics rhea signature and a Zesto and the Herron was favoured by all three present.

Interesting...what was the rest of the system & cables? What differences did you hear?

 There is a Herron for sale on US auto Mart right now. It is the original but I believe he can upgrade it to the latest version, but I'm not sure about that.    I did a head to head comparison with the Herron, the aesthetics rhea signature and a Zesto and the Herron was favoured by all three present. 

Raul, The OP ASKED about “valve” phono stages, preferably balanced ones. In case you don’t know, valve means tube. So naturally the discussion has been about tube or valve phono stages. And your gross generalizations only reveal your own obsession.

@tomwh 

Chakster if you value music that sounds like music, tubes are the way to go. If you like the way CD's sound or go after the black background nonsense, you might want spend your money on something else.

Tom, i think this is not true. I've been into NOS vintage tubes for 7 years, i thought like you. But when i bought First Watt F2J (current-source amplification)  and removed/sold by very expensive push-pull triod amp made OEM by Trafomatic Audio in Europe, i realized it was a huge improvement. Not onlly because the First Watt F2J designed especially for full range drivers, my ex tube amp was also very nice with the same speakers (Zu Audio Druid). First Watt (designed by Nelson Pass) has phenomenal resolution and "real" presentation of my vintage records. I don't care about CD/Digital, i am 100% vinyl dude. First Watt amps is just better, most of my cartridges sounds better with this amp in my system. I like SS gear for practical reason, nos tubes are expensive and i ended up buying many of them (Sylvania, Telefunken, Matsushita, NEC... all for military or audio application, low noise, low microphonic).   

For this reason i have no idea why people are looking for Valve Phono stage ? I was hoping to read some facts, not just esoteric statement. 

My system is much better without any tubes, and i'm sure you lose nothing when you move from tubes to proper SS design like those made by Nelson Pass. 

I think i should try Nelson Pass phono stage in the future! 

@chakster  Any tube fan can explain me what is the advantages of the tube phono stage compared to the great SS design?

There are no advantages per se, it just a listener preference. 

Chakster if you value music that sounds like music, tubes are the way to go.  If you like the way CD's sound or go after the black background nonsense, you might want spend your money on something else.

Tubes are for people who can hear and feel music.  If you want numbers then avoid tubes.  If you want a piano or trumpet or etc... to sound real with soul, well you get the idea.

12ax7 are just OK  look for some one who designed with another tube if possible.  Easy to work with but!!!!

Another little secret, see if anyone is using interstage transformer output final stage, so you can lose the nasty cathode follower. They are cheap and look good on paper but where did the music go.

I know this is not a builder forum so I will shut up now and let the regulars continue the dog fight.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

Any tube fan can explain me what is the advantages of the tube phono stage compared to the great SS design? 

Have had the Aesthetix Rhea signature for a number of years.  Balanced out, multiple arms supported, MC demagnetizer, and with some late 50s Amperex or Millard 12ax7 and 6dj8, for the money, it’s very hard to beat.  You can find them used often, and can get ‘re-warrantied’ By upgrading to either signature or eclipse version if you buy on secondary market.   I can not recommend more highly their support and service.  Jim white is on to something here.  I’ll be jumping into some Atlas mono locks the first chance I get!!!!!!!

Sorry if I still enjoy my work.

LOL!!

Facts contradict your salemanship approach on balanced connections.

@bpoletti  Perhaps you could point me to a link that confirms your position?
Here is a link that confirms mine:http://www.rane.com/note110.html
Scroll down, you'll see a diagram of a transformer hookup. Note that the secondary of the transformer is floating (like a cartridge, the secondary of the transformer is a simple coil with only two connections), per the Balanced Standard, also known as AES (Audio Engineering Society) file 48. There is a charge for the AES paper on that topic, so I can't link that, but here is a google search on 'balanced cartridge connection', also confirming my position:
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&hs=5U8&channel=fs&tbm=isch&q=balanced+ca...
Note how the cartridge is represented by a simple coil with two connections.

So I would be interested in your source(s).

Regarding sales, it is true that I push balanced line operation. IMO/IME it sounds better and no looking back. My exposure to balanced lines occurred in high school, when I was tapped by a local college to play string bass in their orchestra (1973, Macalester College, in case anyone cares).  At the concerts, I noticed a pair of Neumann U67s hung over the orchestra, with some very long cables going up to a very high ceiling and from there going back down to a booth on the side of the hall. Inside the booth was an engineer named Mike Shields (for real, not a made up name) and a Crown reel to reel, running the balanced line connections from the mics straight into the machine.

It was from those concerts (and his headphones) that I learned that you can run very high quality low level audio signals a really long way without degradation. That seemed a logical thing to incorporate into a phono section when I was designing one years later, not so much for the length of cable but for the additional sound quality. So the world's first balanced line preamp, which incorporated the first balanced line phono section, was the MP-1 preamp, which we still make.

A bit of audio history for you; the MP-1 brought balanced line connections into the home for the first time. Sorry if I still enjoy my work.

bpoletti, I don't think you are qualified to argue "facts" with Ralph.  The fact that you don't know when you are over your head is only further proof of that. He's too nice a guy to tell you.

@atmasphere - Facts contradict your salemanship approach on balanced connections.  However, we agree that tubes can better solid state.  It's ALL in the design of the electronic components.  

No single tube audio item ( everything the same ) can compete with SS designs as your Whest in some critical issues when we are talking of LOMC cartridges: noise levels, distortions levels, frequency response bandwindth, RIAA eq. deviation levels, output impedance level, etc etc.

This statement is obviously false. If it were true, there would be no vacuum tube phono sections.

@infection: You can choose for the Kleos SL that's even better than the Kleos, your Whest can handle its lower output with no problem.

R.

Dear @infection: No single tube audio item ( everything the same ) can compete with SS designs as your Whest in some critical issues when we are talking of LOMC cartridges: noise levels, distortions levels, frequency response bandwindth, RIAA eq. deviation levels, output impedance level, etc etc.

I think that a better way to go for you for less money is to buy a Lyra Kleos that's is superior to your Scala and comes with the same main design motor than the Atlas/Etna that the Scala has not.

What and why do you are not satisfied with the Whest? it's the Whest the culprit you are not satisfied or other audio items in your audio system chain?

Don't make the same " mistakes " that all those gentlemans that here recomend this or that tube phono stage because is the WORST place to use a single tube.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

so why do top phono stage designers use RCA inputs?

Tradition- rather than performance.

Take a very close look at phono cart signal generators. Doesn’t matter if the cart is MI, MM or MC. They are NOT balanced, they are single-ended with a + and - pole. One strand of wire that runs from the hot side of the connector to the ground side. No neutral.

This statement is false.
bpoletti, it seems to me that your misunderstanding is the idea that in balanced operation there has to be a ’neutral’ connection- like a center tap on a transformer or the like. IOW, are you expecting that if a cartridge is balanced, it would have six connections? It really doesn’t work that way! How it *does* work is that the winding of the cartridge floats with respect to ground, IOW neither side is tied to ground, instead the arm tube is the ground (its a shield) and other than shielding, the arm tube is not involved with the signal in any way. That is how a balanced system is supposed to work.

If there was a center tap on the cartridge winding, and if it were tied to ground, performance would be reduced because the center tap could never be perfectly placed. That is why balanced systems don't have a center tap- the coil always floats whether its a cartridge, microphone or transformer.

When you run the cartridge single ended, you wind up with the weird ground wire that no other single-ended source seems to need. That is because you are taking a balanced source and running it single ended- and you wind up with a ground wire.

So when we run the cartridge signal into our MP-1 (which in 1989 was the world’s first balanced line preamp), the tone arm ground wire is tied to pin 1 of the XLR, which is ground. The ’+’ output of the cartridge is tied to pin 2 and the minus to pin 3 (pin 2 being either the red or white wire of the tone arm, depending on which channel). This is why a 5-pin DIN tone arm connector is a true balanced connection, since neither channel is tied to the ground and the ground is thus the shield of the interconnect cable.

The advantage of this system is you simply don’t have to have an expensive cable to get it to sound right, a low capacitance cable that is constructed properly is all that is needed, and it will easily keep up with any exotic tone arm cable made, cost no object. Its a pretty clear (if you will pardon the expression) advantage.

bpoletti

... Take a very close look at phono cart signal generators. Doesn’t matter if the cart is MI, MM or MC. They are NOT balanced, they are single-ended with a + and - pole ...

Huh? A stereo phono cartridge is inherently balanced; there is a separate hot and ground for each channel.

@lewm Take a very close look at phono cart signal generators. Doesn’t matter if the cart is MI, MM or MC. They are NOT balanced, they are single-ended with a + and - pole. One strand of wire that runs from the hot side of the connector to the ground side. No neutral.

@o_holter  - thanks. I've decided against the Rhea now...

@steveyork - yeah I saw that, thanks. I'm still deciding what to choose...

@mds  -  I've never heard of him... do you have a link to his site?

i know you wanted balanced but If you don't mind going single ended Tom Tutay can Build you a Tube Phono Preamp for less than your budget.

mds

oholter, you have an advantage on me, because you have owned and aesthetics Io and I have not. However everything I can find on the Internet about it suggests that the phono circuit is balanced, contrary to what you say above. Do you know differently?

There’s a Herron VTPH-2a for sale right now on A’gon.  Check it out. 

Amen to the BAT. I have the VK-P6SE and it is fully balanced all the way through, except for RCA inputs. You can hang some XLRs on the input to be converted to RCA at the chassis. BAT knows balanced, it’s their name. I don’t think anybody else takes "Balanced" more seriously. And the tube sound is as sweet and soft as cotton candy.